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In this week’s In-Ear Insights, Katie and Chris answer a listener question: what are the most important skills or things to know when you become a new manager? What are some of the major obstacles that individual contributors face when finding themselves in a management role? Tune in to find out some of the mistakes each has made, plus ways to avoid those missteps in your own career, regardless of where you are in your career progression.

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Machine-Generated Transcript

What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for listening to the episode.

Christopher Penn 0:02

This is In-Ear Insights, the Trust Insights podcast.

In this week’s in In-Ear Insights, one day, you’re an individual contributor, you’re doing the work and getting things done and moving and grooving The next day, you get promoted, or you maybe change jobs.

And now you’re a manager now in a totally different profession.

And the logical question that you probably have is, what do I do? Where’s the manual? And so Katie, we’ve both had experiences, this make us transition from individual contributor to management and vice versa, moving from manager back to being an individual contributor.

Hey, why isn’t there a manual? Or if there is, why isn’t it given to us when we make that move? Because it management really is a different profession.

Katie Robbert 0:51

It is, I remember, when I was early on in my career, and I made that move the first time, I went from being a project assistant to a project manager.

And on my first day, as a project manager, I sat down in my boss’s office, like I always had with my notebook ready, like, what are we doing today? And she was like, What are you doing? I was like, I’m going to talk about what we’re doing today.

She’s like, Ah, no, you’re the manager.

Now you have to figure out what the day looks like, I don’t tell you anymore.

And it sounds harsh.

And obviously, she didn’t just like leave me high and dry.

But she was right, I was no longer in a position where I was the one being told, here’s what your day looks like, here are the things we’re doing, I had to start to change the way that I was thinking about it and approaching it and be the one who was then setting the course for the day.

And it was a hard shift to make, because I was still sort of, I was still reliant on someone telling me what I should be doing and what my priorities were.

And now I was the person making those decisions.

And I was going to get it wrong a lot of the time when I was brand new to it.

And that was a hard transition.

Because generally, the reason you get promoted is because you’re doing so amazing at the job you’re in, a company wants to move you up to that next step.

So you go from being this outstanding, a plus player, to someone who’s just starting over again, and got to make a lot of mistakes.

And that’s a hard, humbling thing to do.

And so at least in my experience, the reason there is not a manual is because it looks different for every company, the term manager, and I’m putting this in air quotes for people who aren’t watching us on video, mean something different to every organization, a manager could be someone who’s managing all of the customer accounts or all of the client accounts.

A manager could be someone who has all of the direct reports underneath them and is managing the personnel.

A manager could be somebody who’s doing both.

And so there are general management training courses.

But ultimately, it comes down to what the needs are of that specific company.

And that’s really hard to pin down because even Chris, you remember, on our old teams, we had managers and it looked different, even within our own little team, and then across the agency as a whole, the term manager really meant something different depending on who you were talking to.

Christopher Penn 3:21

Yes, yes, that’s that’s certainly one way of putting it.

I remember when I first got into a management position was at the the nonprofit work that immediately after graduate school, and that was just face first into the deep end.

And with very different kinds of employees to because a lot of the employees who work there were also former customers of the nonprofit, the nonprofit was a mental health organization.

And so that was probably not the best starting point for a new manager was working with people who not only did I have to learn how to manage, but also with employees who had you know, declared special needs, and I can say with 100% confidence, I did a horrible job at it.

I continued to do so for most of my career.

Because what I have learned particularly from my parents, right, my father’s career military for a while, does not translate into the modern world.

Like my dad grew up in at&t, his culture after the military and at&t, his culture was exactly the same command and control Oh, you’re your boss says this.

So you do that you say you pass that down, you know, the expression that my dad always used was a shit rolls downhill and and that was fine in the 70s and the 80s.

But not so much once you start getting into into the modern era.

So there was no manual what I had to draw and only what I knew, and what I knew was outdated.

Katie Robbert 4:49

I remember being at the organization that you and I both used to work at and one of our you know, so they have this what they call the pecking order.

And so you have the coordinators and the analysts and the managers and there’s, you know, depending on who you’re talking to, there’s this like, depending on your level, you can only talk to a certain person.

And I remember that one of our marketing coordinators had a question that one of the VPS on a different team had the answer for.

So I, as a manager said, okay, marketing coordinator, go ask the VP because they’ll be able to answer your question.

And then I got called into the VPS office saying, why did you send a marketing coordinator into my office? And I was like, because she had a question.

He’s like, I don’t talk to marketing coordinators, I only thought and I was like, okay, we’re gonna stop right there.

And so it’s, it was an interesting eye opening experience to, on the one hand, what was supposed to be an open door culture, but on the other hand, not everybody bought into it.

And so, you know, the topic that we’re talking about today is making that move from individual contributor to someone who’s overseeing the individual contributors.

And so it, I think one of the first lessons that I learned was that it’s not about me anymore, I might hold the title of manager.

But if I’m doing my job, right, I am the least important person on the team, my job is to remove blocks, to open the lines of communication, and to make sure everybody else is set up for success.

If those things happen, that I’m doing my job correctly, it’s no longer you know, as I’m no longer the individual contributor, I’m not there to take the glory and take the credit, if anything, I should be taking the least amount of credit for holding up the team and allowing the team to do the work that they’re showing up to do.

Christopher Penn 6:49

Like the what’s the adage, the conductor of the orchestra doesn’t make a sound right is exactly the first thing I learned when I started learning how to manage more effectively was that as an individual contributor, you only have relationship power to rely on if you need to get something done, and you don’t have the authority to to get it done.

You have to build relationships with the people around you to essentially encourage them or to help that work to find some way to, to motivate them to work with you, rather than against you particularly in very hierarchical organizations.

And when you become a manager, you have you transition to having role power, being able to say, as the manager, I can tell you to do this thing.

But one of the mistakes that I made it by the biggest mistake I’ve made and have continued to make, which Why don’t manage people is the role power of being the default, instead of relationship power still being your first choice.

Because if you can, if you can work with somebody and encourage them with relationship, how you don’t need usual power.

Katie Robbert 7:54

It’s true.

And you know, and so basically, Chris, the scenario that you’re describing, and I think we’ve all sort of been on both sides of this thing is if you’re working with your team, or whoever, and you say, go do that thing.

If they start to question, you know, it’s very easy to get frustrated, like no, I told you to go to the thing, don’t question me just go do it.

And as we know, from working with other people that generally doesn’t go over very well.

It’s something that I talked about extensively in one of the change management workshops I gave recently is that, sure you can demand and dictate, you know, your orders on to people.

But number one, this isn’t the military.

This is you know, marketing and tech and, you know, communications, and it doesn’t go over very well.

Now.

They’re not going over very well aside.

To your point, Chris, you have to use that relationship power and figure out what motivates your team, what motivates other people to want to be successful.

And, you know, I remember coming into, you know, your team when you hired me on, and there was a lot of role and relationship power knots, I guess, to untangle because it wasn’t very clear.

And it was it was the reason you brought me on because it wasn’t best suited to your skill set.

And I think that that’s sort of the second lesson is that not everybody should be a manager.

It’s not everybody’s skill set, just like I’m not really suited to be a data scientist.

Because it’s not my skill set.

You’re not suited to be a manager.

It’s not your skill set.

That doesn’t mean that you’re not an effective employee or an effective founder.

It just means that we need to do a better job of understanding our strengths and our deficits.

And I think that that’s hard for some people, especially in an organization where the only path forward is to become a manager.

One of my really good friends, her husband wanted nothing to do with being a manager, he was happy being an engineer, he was happy being an individual contributor.

But the they kept pushing him into a manager role.

And he was like, I don’t want to do it.

It’s not my personality, I don’t want to manage people, like I don’t want to do it.

And they kept pushing him.

And finally, he was pushed into this manager role.

And he immediately fell flat on his face, because he said, I don’t want to do it.

It’s not my skill set, I just want to write code all day.

And so I think that that sort of the third piece is you can’t just push someone into a management role.

It’s not a rip and replace, you can’t just stick someone in that role and expect the same results.

The way that I managed versus the way that you manage, Chris is very different.

And we get very different results.

Christopher Penn 10:47

Yes.

I think that’s an important distinction to make, though, because I’ll tell you, right, a lot of organizations, the default is to move someone to manager position on the premise, I’m guessing that if you were good at the thing, you can grow a crop of people who are good at the thing and effectively help the organization scale.

But that’s not necessarily true, nor is it necessarily something that you have to do, right.

Because if you have good process management, then you can take the procedures and processes that a high performer has and give that to people without making the high performer have to necessarily teach it to somebody as long as your documentation is good.

And I think it’s a really important distinction to be able to say to somebody, if the company’s culture is flexible enough, which, you know, being founders of the organization, we get to say that now, you can be a thought leader without being a people leader.

Right? They are separate things.

And you don’t have to be both to be a leader in some fashion.

But I think that gets lost in general industry corporations, the assumption is you’re going to be a leader, you have to do all the leadership things, instead of saying, No, you can be, you know, the mad scientist, and you don’t have to manage anybody, because you’re not good at it, that also requires an astonishing amount of self awareness.

At an organizational level.

Katie Robbert 12:05

It does.

And you know, I’ve seen a lot of really bad managers.

And when we say the term bad manager, I would say it’s probably 50%, the fault of the organization for putting that person in the position, and 50%, the fault of the person in the position for not saying, Hey, this is probably not the best fit.

And to your point, there’s a lot of self awareness that has to come from that.

And it’s, it’s hard for someone to say, this is not what I’m good at.

Because we kind of all want to be leaders in some way, shape, or form.

Like even if we say no, I’m happy, never taken the spotlight, you still want to have your voice heard.

And sometimes in an organization, the only way for that to happen is if you hold the title of manager.

And so a lot of companies fall down on that professional development in terms of what does it mean to be a manager not just in the world, but in this organization specifically, so there’s a lot of emphasis on the hard skills like this is when you do a review, this is when you make sure that somebody is getting their work done, you know, but these soft skills are, they’re teachable, but they’re harder to teach, because everybody approaches it differently.

Not everybody is the same level of empathetic, not everybody is the same level of active listener.

And so that’s really challenging.

The other part of that is, as a manager, there’s a lot of letting go that you have to do in terms of well, this is how I’ve always done it.

So my expectation is you were also going to do exactly the way that I did it because I wrote it down exactly.

And if you’re not doing it exactly the way that I’ve asked you to do it you as the subordinate or the failure, not me as a manager for being inflexible.

Christopher Penn 13:54

That’s probably the area where I had the hardest time in management was to hand off something and then watch somebody else, do it less well and not improve or not improve substantially.

If they did a 60% as well as I did, they got to like 64%, as well as I did still, like that’s not how I would do that.

And it’s one of those things that you know, you and I have flagged as being potentially problematic down the road for for TrustInsights.ai is to be able to say like Yeah, when we do grow because the the ambition is to grow at some point, we’ll have to work out processes for when somebody else’s is taking on some of the data science work because they will be times where I’m gonna be like, that’s not how I would do it.

Katie Robbert 14:36

So let me ask you this question, Chris.

So let’s say in that scenario, you hand it off somebody to someone and said, okay, complete this task, and they hand it back to you and they didn’t do it the way that you would have done it is your first inclination to say okay, I’ll just do it myself because I’ll have it done the way that I want to or do you take the time to say let me show you that Where you’ve, you know, gone awry or gone off script? Like, I’m sort of leading you into the answer I want you to give, but I want to hear the honest truth.

Christopher Penn 15:09

It depends.

That’s the answer.

It depends on two things.

One, is it a task that I enjoy doing? If it’s not idle? I will say you do it the way you want to.

I never want to see it again, I don’t care if it’s correct or not, because I hate doing that thing.

Right? That’s part one.

And part two, being perfectly honest.

It depends on whether I like the person or not, if I don’t like the person, like, I’m not going to invest time and energy into trying to coach them and help them grow up.

You know, again, going back to teams we worked with in the past, there are people who I had a good personal relationship with like, Okay, I’m going to try and help this person go, they’re like, wow, this person just generally annoys me.

And if I could show them out the door, I would.

And so it’s a combination, I guess, if you had a two by two matrix, do I like the person or no, I like the person is the test clipping, I like to, I don’t like to do it.

And, you know, just fill in the matrix.

That’s how I have typically function.

Now, obviously, we are in a situation now where we don’t inherit people that you know, from another team or something like that we get a choice as to who we hire.

So presumably, we’re not going to hire somebody who’s just unlikable.

And so that would mostly fall to is that a task that I actually care about or not? If it’s like, I needed to produce, you know, this report? You know, it’s also tricky, because a lot of what I do now is very binary outcomes, right? Either the code ran would didn’t run.

And there’s not a lot of change that can happen along with this changes can happen, the interpretation of the results, but the task of pushing the button, that that’s there’s a pretty binary outcome.

So I would say it really depends on now on whether it’s something that I’m invested in heavily and or not.

Katie Robbert 16:51

I think that that is a fantastically honest answer.

And I appreciate that, because what it illustrates is why you are so good at in the role that you’re in, and why if we brought other people on, then there would need to be some protocols put in place for you to be able to manage that person effectively.

But also set expectations.

So it’s not an impossible task to say, oh, Chris, now you have direct reports.

But knowing what I know about the way that you operate, and you being the founder, I can work with that I can cater to your strengths and the areas that you have for improvement to say, how do we have someone report to you and set them up for success, but then also make sure there’s a constant feedback loop, because I’ll be honest, you’re not going to like everybody you like very few people, you know, and so that is probably going to be the more challenging thing, we can find people who have the right skill set, but you can’t be best friends with everybody.

And I think that’s that sort of maybe the fourth, if I’m on like, the fourth thing now, you know, you’re not going to, you know, be best friends with everyone on your team.

And that’s okay.

Because again, being a manager is not about you.

And I think that that’s one of the hardest things for people to wrap their heads around is, at the end of the day, it’s not about you, your job is not to, you know, be best friends with everybody.

And, you know, go get coffee with everybody.

And you know, it’s your job is to make these people succeed, you need to remove your personal feelings out of it.

Now, with the caveat of like, if someone’s really just an asshole, that’s a whole different like thing that you need to address, you need to figure out what’s going on, why they don’t get along with the rest of the team, why you don’t get along with them.

But as the manager, your job is to confront that in a way that you can decide, is this person a good cultural fit? Or a bad culture fit? Or are they do they just have a personality that people clash with, but they do good work, and they can continue to thrive within the team? You know, and obviously, there’s a lot to unpack there.

Christopher Penn 19:05

There’s lots of unpack there, but I think that hits on something that I forget who said it, but I thought was a really apt analogy, you know, it was a post on LinkedIn saying, you know, please stop calling your companies, your, you know, your family, because you can’t fire family members.

It’s a team, it’s like a sports team, you can absolutely change the manager, you can change the, you know, the the pitcher of the catcher, whoever.

And everybody understands that.

Those roles change those players change over time, the team is what stays the same and you know, you either win or lose.

And when it comes to when I think back about the people that I’ve worked best with it, it’s it’s Yes, liking is part of, you know, do I get along with this person? But more important, at least for me, is do I respect this person or not? Do I see that they’re putting an effort that they’re trying that they’re self motivated things that I value? selfishly in myself.

And if I don’t respect that person Have a much harder time working with them,

Katie Robbert 20:02

I can understand that.

And, you know, to be completely honest, I’ve had team members, you know, in various jobs that I’ve really, really liked and got along with well, but they weren’t great fits.

And so that’s, in some ways an even harder scenario, because you really like the person you get along well with them, you respect them, but they’re just not a great team member, they can’t keep up, or the work isn’t suited to their skill set.

And that’s, I don’t, in my opinion, that’s harder, because then you have formed that relationship with the person and you have to still tell them, but you’re not a great fit, you have to go because I have to put my feelings aside for the outcome of the business as a whole.

Um, you know, and so it’s definitely, you know, a tough scenario.

Either way.

I think there’s, you know, to the comment about respect, there’s two sides to that one, you need to feel like you can respect the team that you are overseeing and responsible for, but you yourself have to earn the respect of those team members in order to get anywhere with them.

And so, I guess that’s sort of the fifth thing, I’ve sort of, I’ve lost track of the number that I’m on.

So let’s call this P.

Um, and so, you know, if you’re trying to make headway with them, if you’re trying to demonstrate your authority, the title alone does not give you authority to do anything except on paper.

Because, you know, yeah, I’m the CEO of the company.

And if I start barking orders at you, and John, and saying, let’s do this, we’re gonna do this, because I said, so like, you guys won’t respect me, you’ll be like, Who’s this chick thing she is, I’m just gonna go do my thing anyway.

Because what she gonna do fire me, I’m founder, like, it’s, you can’t just demand respect of your team, you have to earn it, you have to show them why you are worthy of them, trusting you with their, you know, jobs, and, you know, setting them up for success, you have to lead by example, and show them that if they respect you, and if they listen, here’s the benefit to them.

Because again, it comes back to it’s not about you, it’s about everybody else.

Christopher Penn 22:17

Exactly.

And there are no shortage of companies that that can easily demonstrate what happens when that falls apart when particularly people abuse relationship power.

And one of my favorite gaming companies, Blizzard Entertainment is currently in the midst of a massive, I guess, chaotic time where the state of California has sued the company for discrimination.

And then all sorts of stuff has come out, but fundamentally boils down to people who are managers, people who are in management positions, it should not have been, right, they technically should not have been employed period, because, you know, things like sexual harassment in the workplace are never acceptable.

But they should not have been managers for sure, they probably should not work for the company.

And now the company is having to as massive, you know, reckoning, if you will, and the fate of the company itself is in question, because what will it take for this company to write the ship.

And when we think about the core question of making that transition from individual contributor to manager, none of this stuff is explained, none of this stuff is said, Here are the consequences of good and bad management.

We’ve all had bad managers.

We’ve all had good managers, hopefully.

But and on day one, when you sit down at your desk, and your new match, none of this, it, there’s no context, there’s an understanding of what the big picture is.

And I think that’s probably f number six.

If a person doesn’t understand the role and context of being a manager in the organization, and what that means that organization, it’s very hard for them to do a good job, good job.

It’s like anything, if you don’t know what the goal is, or why you’re working towards it.

You do it because you have to because as part of your job, but you won’t do it, as well as if you understand it’s like, if you can imagine painting by numbers, but you can’t see the final thing, you can only apply colors to pieces and like you won’t understand what it is you’re doing.

You just know that you’ve got to know Color Purple, number six purple on this on this thing.

And that’s all you see.

Katie Robbert 24:33

You have to have a lot of faith.

And that’s hard, you know, without getting into a different topic that’s hard for people to have when they don’t know what the final outcome is.

And that’s absolutely where a lot of companies fail their managers.

And so you as a manager, your measures of success look very different from your analysts measure of success, and so an analyst you know, maybe You know, low error rate with their analysis, maybe it’s, you know, delivery time, maybe it’s, you know, efficiencies and those kinds of things.

You as a manager, those are not your measures of success.

They are by extension, but directly, like making sure that you’re you don’t lose customers or clients, making sure that, you know, your team doesn’t suddenly have rapid turnover.

I used to work with someone who was appear to me another manager and their default, instead of trying to work with someone who maybe they thought, you know, question too many things or didn’t do things exactly the way that they thought they should, was to put them on a performance plan.

And I literally had never seen so many performance plans handed out in one single team.

And it just, it was mind boggling, because that was this managers to fault go to have, you know, don’t question me, or else you’re going to go on a performance plan.

So this person led by fear, and intimidation, even though if to look at this person, there was nothing fearful or intimidating about them.

They were just kind of goofy, but they didn’t know how to properly manage through conflict through, you know, differences of opinion through people saying, Well, why are you asking me to do it this way? And so, you know, that’s how a lot of companies fail these managers by not signing them up for success to teach them how to literally manage through these different scenarios.

And so Chris, I want to as we’re sort of, you know, winding down the conversation I want to ask you, so you’ve obviously had some really bad managers, and some really good managers, can you give me sort of just at a high level, broad strokes, like some qualities of bad managers that you’ve had, and some qualities of good managers that you had?

Christopher Penn 26:51

Bad managers are folks who don’t understand what it is that I do, but attempt to dictate how I do it? Right? It’s like, if you don’t know how to make a souffle, but you’re constantly telling me Oh, you did the Excellent, well, how would you know, you can’t cook? You know, where’s a good match, like, Look, and there, honestly, I don’t know what you I have no idea how you do it, I don’t need to, I need to see the outcomes that we’re after, right? How you get to the outcomes, as long as legal and ethical is is up to you.

I’m, as an individual contributor, and we’re very autonomous person, I just like to go off and do my thing, and come back with the results.

and fix them a lot.

As I learned more about how to do things.

And so for me, an effective manager is someone who holds me accountable for the results I generate, but doesn’t try to influence the process, if they don’t understand it.

With the caveat that they are still available for me as a sounding board as somebody who I can ask us, like, hey, how would you approach this? Or I’m stuck? What do you think of and even just that process of having a discussion with someone, you know, is talking something out can often solve problems, a lot of times, that’s one reason why you and I work so well together, is because you don’t necessarily understand for example, like I use the lasso, regression ridge regression and elastic regression here.

But no, you can you can ask questions about the process and the outcome.

And oftentimes, they’ll be like, Oh, well, actually, if I use x g boost here, instead, I and I model off of the error variables outfit that will fix the problem.

So that’s, to me is the difference between a bad manager and a good manager is for me is is someone who is that accountability.

And there’s that openness and, and coaching, about the things that I’m not good at.

Without that assumption of, you know, what’s going on.

But I will also raise my hand in the world of analytics, data science, there aren’t a lot of people in management roles that I could even ask advice to, like, I have to ask advice to people who have like PhDs because because they know the technical stuff better than I do.

And say, like, what I do wrong, and like, wow, that was really stupid.

When I think back to earlier, my career before I was doing a lot of data science analytics.

Again, those the people who were really good at managing the people that I enjoyed working for were the ones that helped provide structure and context, but did not, I guess, for lack of a better word micromanager, how about you?

Katie Robbert 29:38

Well, I think you know, if we’re on point, you know, G, or whatever letter a number we’re on, you bring up a really solid point of a good manager doesn’t have to be an expert in everything.

And so I’ve had very similar experience.

I’ve had managers who have tried to micromanage every single movement and you know, As much as I like to talk about, like, you know, it’s not about you, it’s, you know, you’re there for the other team.

I like being told what to do.

Like, I really don’t, I’m actually also very difficult to manage.

If you come at me with, I’m going to micromanage you hear what you have to do, you have to do exactly this way, I would say pretty much any reasonable person doesn’t respond well to that kind of management.

And rightly so because it’s not effective, it’s not productive.

And, Chris, a lot of what you’re describing is that trust building.

And so the reason you and I work very well together is because I trust that you know what you’re doing, you’ve demonstrated time and time again, to me, that you know what you’re talking about.

And if there’s something problematic with what you’re doing, you will find a solution for it.

And if you can’t, then you will raise your hand to say, I need some help, or I need to look elsewhere, or I just need someone to talk to you about it.

Like, I have no reason to feel like I need to micromanage the work that you’re doing.

Because you’ve demonstrated as an individual contributor, that you don’t need that kind of handhold, and you’re not new in your career, you know, you’re very self sufficient.

And so as a manager, my job is to stay on back is to let you do your thing, and only intervene if I’m seeing, you know, the timeline slipping away, or other things not getting done.

That’s my job, my job is to just remind, hey, don’t forget, we have these 20 other deliverables, and you’ve spent 18 hours on this thing that should have taken two hours.

That’s where I have the right to step in.

And as managers, that should really be it.

Obviously, you know, it’s your point offer counsel, you know, the bad managers that I’ve had are the people who abuse that role power.

And so well, you know, I’m the manager, and I say you can’t talk to your own clients, because you don’t hold a title that’s worthy of talking to the clients.

That’s just one example.

You know, or, I know that you want to work on this thing over here.

But I want you to work on this thing over here.

And if I try to question it, no, you can’t question it.

And so there’s the bad managers to me, or the people who aren’t even open to listening? Or even, you know, even if the answer is no, and I’ve been guilty of this as well, even if the answer is no, at least hear me out, at least listen to, you know what I have to say, because believe it or not, I might have a decent suggestion, even if I’m not a manager, because I’m in the weeds every single day, and I’m going to see it differently than you, the manager will see it.

And then the better managers, I’ve had other people who’ve been, okay, let’s talk about the different things that you’re seeing in the options.

And then I will call her that with my expertise as someone who’s been doing this longer.

Christopher Penn 33:04

Exactly.

So at least seven possibly more points.

For folks who are making that transition, I would think we will close on, don’t be afraid to ask for help and look for frameworks out there, there are a number of great tools that you can use that are starting points that are like a cookbook, right, you’re not going to cook every recipe in the cookbook way.

He maybe wants to try them all.

But you don’t need to cook every single thing all the time.

Find the ones that work for you.

What I would recommend is there’s a great tool called the manager tools podcast, it’s it’s a good starting point.

It’s not appropriate for every company it you know, the the folks who produce it came from a specific kind of management background.

But if it’s a choice between I’m just gonna wing it and hope or hey, here’s three or four frameworks that I can start with to have a place to start might not be the worst idea.

If you’ve got questions or comments about anything we’ve talked about in today’s episode, or you want to contribute your own tips for things that you’ve learned from going from an individual contributor to being a manager or vice versa, pop on over to our free slack group go to Trust insights.ai slash analytics for marketers where you have over 1900 other folks are talking about analytics and marketing and the questions you have every day.

And wherever it is that you’re tuning into the show today.

If there’s a channel you prefer to get it on, go to Trust insights.ai slash ti podcast, and you will find where the show is in all the other major channels.

Thanks for tuning in.

We’ll talk to you soon.

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