So What? Marketing Analytics and Insights Live
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In this week’s episode of So What? we focus on shadow banned. We walk through what it means to be shadow banned on social, how to determine if you’ve been shadow banned and how to get your account active again. Catch the replay here:
In this episode you’ll learn:
- What it means to be shadow banned on social
- How to determine if you’ve been shadow banned
- How to get your account active again
Have a question or topic you’d like to see us cover? Reach out here: https://www.trustinsights.ai/resources/so-what-the-marketing-analytics-and-insights-show/
Katie Robbert: Well, hey everyone, happy Thursday! Welcome to “So What: The Marketing Analytics and Insights Live Show.” I’m Katie, joined by Chris and John. How’s it going, guys?
John Wall: It’s going, John. Well done, well.
Katie Robbert: On this week’s episode, we’re talking about shadow banning, specifically, “Have I been shadow banned?” This came out of our conversation on last week’s livestream, which you can catch up on our YouTube channel at TrustInsights.ai/YouTube, where we talked about how different social media algorithms work. So, one of the questions that comes up is, “Have I been shadow banned?” John, I know you’ve been doing some reading about shadow banning. Can you summarize what it is before we figure out whether or not it’s happening?
John Wall: Yeah, sure. I’ve been following the pulse-pounding Twitter files, which has been the least exciting thing to go on in the past four months that we thought was gonna be cool. But shadow banning actually goes way back to Reddit. If anybody has been around forever, Reddit around 2012-ish, somewhere. One of the lead guys was just joking around that, “Oh, yeah, there’s people that we just shut your stuff off, and you think everything’s running normally, but you’re actually not talking to anybody. You’ve been shadow banned.” The idea is that there are no rules behind this, and that has been hijacked over the years. That original idea that you would be doing stuff, thinking you’re in the community, but nobody ever sees or reads any of your stuff, has kind of been applied to everything as we get people who are complaining. Well, we don’t show up in the search results, or we don’t have an easy way to think of it. It’s, yeah, there may be freedom of speech, but there’s no freedom of reach. You’re not entitled to get to everybody. But in most of the cases today, the users are being told that, “Hey, we’re gonna stop showing your stuff.” And it’s not that they don’t exist without their own knowledge, but everybody still calls it shadow banning because that’s cool.
Katie Robbert: How was that, Chris? Is that straight on?
Christopher Penn: It is. The challenge is that, to what John is saying, there’s actually being acted against by the network, and then there’s “your content just sucks, and nobody likes it.”
Katie Robbert: Well, and I’m guessing that Twitter or TikTok or whoever never says, “Hey, by the way, you’ve been shadow banned.” It’s just this illusion of, “Well, nobody’s engaging with my stuff.” I see this on TikTok every once in a while where somebody will post something which almost feels kind of clickbait-y of, “I think I’ve been shadow banned. Please engage with my stuff so I’ll know if this is happening.” And I’m like, “I feel like you’re manipulating me. You’re making me feel bad because you’re showing me cute videos of your puppy, but you’re just looking for engagement numbers.”
Christopher Penn: And it’s interesting not to drag politics into this, but yesterday at the House Oversight Committee testimony, former Twitter executives were testifying about how Twitter worked. And in that testimony, we won’t go into the political side of it, but in that testimony, Twitter executives said, “Oh, actually, it’s the opposite. We had to make numerous exceptions to our trust and safety rules to allow certain people who would otherwise have been penalized in some way to continue saying what they wanted to say.” So there are a lot of utilities and things out there that claim to help you detect whether you’re shadow banned or not. The Twitter rules, and this is true of all the social networks, the networks publish what happens to you if you disobey the rules. Some things like it says, preclude here. If you violate certain rules, your immediate permanent suspension, they can’t buy your gun, right? Others require you to remove the offending tweets or temporarily limit your ability to post new tweets. And again, check the terms of service for Instagram and TikTok. And all these companies tell you, “Here’s what’s going to happen if you break the rules.” It’s interesting that none of them mention that they’re going to reduce your reach. Now, when Twitter had its little management change last October, the new owner did talk about going to tell you if you’ve been shadow banned or not and stuff. But it’s noteworthy that that has not happened. There has been no disclosure that even though new management’s been in place now for what, four months, five months now, it’s likely because it doesn’t actually exist.
Katie Robbert: You know what’s interesting too, though, is I also see the term “shadow ban” a lot in Facebook groups where there’s a moderator. Someone will, you know, a member will say something like, “I don’t know why my post was removed. Can the admin reach out to me to tell me? Or have I been shadow banned by the admin?” When, you know, sometimes people accidentally hit delete, or, you know, to what you guys are saying, your content wasn’t that good, and nobody cares.
Christopher Penn: Yep, exactly. The other thing that this goes back to last week’s show that people don’t realize is that all of these social networks are these graph neural networks that we talked about last week, which means that your content and your being able to be seen varies from day to day based on your position within the network. So I’m going to bring up a very simplified example. This is from the MarketingProfs B2B forum, one of my favorite conferences we were at last year. And what I’ve done is I’ve basically made a map of who is tweeting at or about other people. The bigger your circle is, obviously, the more you get tweeted out, but the colors on here are essentially neighborhoods, right? These are the people that you associate with most. And so, for example, we see me, Trust Insights, Katie, Jay Baer, and John Wall all in blue color, which pretty clearly indicates we talk to each other, right? In a graph neural network, these associations are being monitored all the time. And that means that if it’s going to recommend your content to somebody, guess who it’s going to recommend it to? It’s going to recommend it to the people who are nearest to you in the network, who are the most likely to engage with it, because the networks want engagement. They want you to stay glued to the feed, they want you to consume more ads. And so Nancy Harhut over here in the bright orange, she’s pretty far away from me in this example graph. So though, if this was a social network, the algorithm probably would not recommend my content to Nancy all that often, right? Because she’s so far away from me in in engagement.
John Wall 7:34
Yeah, I know, that’s disappointing, because Nancy is hardcore, you know, marketing stats and analytics course, psychology slant on that, I guess. So it’s a different crowd, and she just has her own community.
Katie Robbert 7:44
But that doesn’t mean that you’ve been shadow banned. It just means that mathematically, you’re not going to show up in her feed. And so I guess, I guess one of one of my first questions for you and I this might be a rhetorical question is, you know, are people essentially crying wolf when they’re saying I’ve been shadow banned?
Christopher Penn 8:06
The answer is a maybe. And here’s the easiest way to answer that question. Go to your own analytics, right. So here’s the Trust Insights analytics account, Twitter account, right? And look at your art engagement. And is our engagement unusual in some fashion? Right? Is it is up or is it down is, you know what’s going on with it. You can export all this data and make like really big charts versus have this chart. Here’s what Trust Insights looks like, since 2018, when we started our Twitter account our engagement rate, there are periods here where our engagement is definitely lower periods where it’s higher. But at no point does it go to zero if I would if if we were truly, you know, Shadow banned, you would expect to see Les Paul, but a different example. This is the marketing over coffee Twitter account. You can see there’s a great big gap here where there’s no engagement at all. That’s because we weren’t tweeting.
Katie Robbert 9:07
John Wall 9:09
this is a very depressing graph overall.
Katie Robbert 9:13
No, I mean, you can see it’s not like, you know, last month you’re talking 2010 to 2018. My Account, quite honestly would look very similar. I think I stood up my account in 2010 ish, but didn’t really start making an active until, you know, Trust Insights.
John Wall 9:36
Yeah, that’s doing the placeholder there.
Christopher Penn 9:40
Exactly. So you can see pretty clearly that you if Marco coffee account had been shadow banned for in this case a years. That’s what it would look like. It would say like, oh, look, our engagement is nothing no one’s seeing our stuff. We’re just in a vacuum. Here’s Katie’s account. You know, this is
Katie Robbert 10:00
Did you Did polar
Christopher Penn 10:03
bears, you could see, you know, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing selling 2018 Just start Trust Insights Ks, like I find, I guess I got a tweet.
Katie Robbert 10:11
But again, but this doesn’t tell you maybe I was just posting really crappy content for 10 years. That’s, and that’s the thing like, that’s what this is missing like, we can make assumptions. But it doesn’t actually because good content is subjective. And so maybe all I was doing was live tweeting bad Lifetime movies and nobody cared. Maybe it was just so terrible that nobody could, or maybe I was just telling people the kind of cereal I was eating for breakfast that morning.
Christopher Penn 10:44
Exactly. And so the, this is what it would look like if your account had some kind of suppression on it, right? That those big golf, so just no engagement whatsoever. You’re just constantly being seen. Nobody knows it’s there. And nothing’s happening. Now, it’s very interesting to look, you know, Katie’s engagement rate has actually gotten really, really well in the last four years. So Katie is a champion Social Media Manager. Well,
John Wall 11:12
you just trim that graphic 2018. Business.
Katie Robbert 11:16
I mean, like, timing wise, it makes sense, because I really didn’t activate my account until I had a reason to. I mean, I have been on I will quote myself saying, I hate social media. I’m not good at it. But I understand its importance and its utility, and I will do it on behalf of the business.
Christopher Penn 11:38
Exactly. So to answer the question, you know, have you been shadow banned? Again, go into the tools that are provided to you and look at, you know, in this case, the Twitter for your own account will give you impression numbers, right. So, here on Sunday, the 22nd, you know, Trust Insights had 26 impressions, we had no tweets, so that makes sense. Yeah, we had two tweets for 63 impressions on the 16th. We had no tweets on Friday, the 27th. But we had a lot of engagement because of other stuff was going on at the time. So that’s, that’s how to tap to tell if you if you’re tweeting, and you’re getting no impressions, you might have been shadow banned, which means that you don’t have have any reach.
Katie Robbert 12:26
But this is apologies, but this is just Twitter, like, tick tock doesn’t have great analytics. LinkedIn doesn’t have great analytics. And so, you know, how do you find out in a different context like so you know, Twitter has this analytics.twitter.com that you can tie to your account and find out pretty quickly. But what about other platforms? Like? Are you still just guessing? Or is there a way to find out?
Christopher Penn 12:56
Oh, there’s absolutely ways to find out, particularly if you are a creator on those platforms, so a lot of platforms have not just individual analytics, but if you’re a creator, you get extra stuff. So for example, here on LinkedIn, LinkedIn, if you turn on creator mode, now you can look at your content performance. So let’s look at the last 90 days. And this is impressions, right? So is my content being shown to people? And you know, sometimes, sometimes it is sometimes it isn’t at no point does this graph flatline? You know, like a cardiac patient going into arrhythmia. It’s pretty clearly I’m being seen. You can look go look at your engagements to to see if if your content is landing with people, right? So there are definitely periods of time here, like in November where my content just didn’t land. Was I shadowbanned? No, I was putting out content nobody liked.
Katie Robbert 13:51
Well, okay, so it sounds like step one. Have I been shadow banned? You need to look at your analytics from that particular platform to see like, Did I put out crappy content? Or have I really been getting, you know, zero reach and engagement, zero impressions, zero engagement, but I’ve been posting like crazy, that probably means that you’ve been shadow banned for whatever reason. However, if you’re still seeing a little bit of activity, then that means that you probably need to double check if you’re posting the right stuff to the right people.
Christopher Penn 14:28
Exactly. And I think that it’s that simple. Now, I guess the next logical question is how do you if you’re not getting engaged, regardless of being banned, right, what do you do to fix it?
Katie Robbert 14:42
Oh, I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s the million dollar question. You know, what I would do is I would start to run some tests of different kinds of content. You know, I would say like, do people engage more with videos or did you People engage more with polls. You know, if I keep it really simple to a basic question like, pineapple on pizza, are our old standby, are people going to engage with it? And I feel like those kinds of tests will start to tell you, I’m sure there’s a way to look at your analytics to determine how to test but my, that’s what my gut would tell me to do. John, how about you?
John Wall 15:23
Yeah, you can totally do the, you know, post a great picture of your dog. And, boy, I think green is a terrible color. What do you think, you know, you can do stuff like that, that just generates and spins all kinds of stuff. And jumping on other threads to like reply, boosting and stuff like that. Those are because I didn’t realize like, that’s one thing that people actually get angry about is you can get banned from threads. You know, your replies, don’t show up. Like everything is normal on the stuff you publish, but your replies don’t show up. And that can go from because I always wondered where that more Reply button comes from. That’s not saying like, Oh, we could only serve up 10 replies, it’s, you’ve seen the 10 best replies, if you want to see the crappy ones, click here. And then we’ll show you those. But yeah, jumping, you know, the whole newsjacking thing does work.
Christopher Penn 16:16
It does. Let’s go back to last week to right, if we know that, say Andy Crestodina or Nancy Johar hunter or Nick Westergaard are people that we want to be interacting with, right, we want to be seen by them. We should be tagging them in our content, right? We should, we should have an understanding of who our network is, and then be interacting with them on on the appropriate network, we should be creating content about them. Our friend, Carol does this phenomenally with her illustrations, she creates animations that feature people on the graph that she wants to interact with more be seen with by more. And so it’s, it’s an easy thing to what John was saying. Go into the social listing tool of your choice. Here’s Talkwalker, for example, choose the platform that you want to interact on. I’ll choose Twitter here. I chose as a search term, Google Analytics. And I set a Windows last seven days. Here’s the most engaged tweets on on Google Analytics in the last seven days. What should we do? Retweet, reply? And like, right? It’s like, comment, share. That’s that’s the magic formula for engagement. And a certain percentage of people, because people are predictable, will naturally like say, Hey, thanks for retweeting me, or whatever. And guess what, now you’ve created that connection in the network graph to those nodes.
Katie Robbert 17:37
Well, and it’s funny, because in the pre show, we were talking about how I never see Chris’s posts in my Twitter feed. But I also don’t engage with Chris Chris’s posts on Twitter, primarily because we work together and I talked to him every day, I don’t also feel the need to then engage with his social media. But if we were seeing that my doing so would help with my engagement, his engagement, you know, then it would be something that, you know, we would start doing but I think overall, like, Chris and I don’t engage with each other’s posts on social media, purely because we talk to each other all day long, anyway.
Christopher Penn 18:18
Yep, exactly. And so if I want to see more of Katie, guess what I’m gonna do, I’m gonna hit go all the way down the stack here. Anything that Katie is sharing?
Katie Robbert 18:34
Right. Doesn’t even know what he’s replying to
Christopher Penn 18:39
have no idea. Exactly sick. No, here’s it’s true that that did happen. And now, what are we doing, we are feeding the network, right? We are telling the network, this person is important, this media is important. I want to see more of it. Some networks will even let you specify that Instagram and Facebook in particular, say, you know, show these people first. And so if there are, if you’re in sales, if you’re in a business development, guess what your top 50 prospects should be in that list. And I always want to see John wall’s posts first. And that way, that way, I remember like, comment, share everything that John puts out that within reason, like if it’s a picture of like John’s plumbing work over the weekend, I’m like, I don’t know if I want to like that toilet.
Katie Robbert 19:38
Well, and so you know, Facebook does that too. And so it will ask you do you want to see more or less posts like this or more or less from this person? And so I think what we’re coming to is, you know, you, you know, the term shadow band, like anything else is sort of tossed around very loosely without a really good understanding of what it really means. And so I think that, you know, posters and creators on social media will use it in a way to sort of like, manipulations the wrong word, but like they’ll sort of use it to try to get more engagement like, hey, you know, I think I’ve been shadow banned. Can you engage with this to see if it’s really true? And they’re probably just trying to be like, Hey, here’s a great way to get people to pay attention, or, you know, so you really don’t really know. So I would say, you know, buyer beware, if you see people posting like that, they may just be looking to boost their numbers, someone who’s really shadowbanned, you wouldn’t see their post, period. And so that’s sort of like the gut check of, well, they’re saying they’ve been shadow banned, but I’m still seeing their stuff.
Christopher Penn 20:47
Exactly. Social networks. And this is the part that drives me crazy about people. Social networks, do not have an incentive to have quiet users. They have an incentive to have loud users, noisy people, controversial people, because that’s what keeps people coming back. And that’s what lets them show more ads. Right? If nobody’s posting, then you’d have less inventory to show ads on. You know, John was pointing up before the show, though, there’s this rumor that Twitter is going to limit people who are not your verified members to seven tweets a day, that is not in Twitter’s economic interest to make money, right? Twitter wants you to be verbose, because A, that’s a sort of Avatar, and B, we know from the new management’s tweets that they measure activity, like, hey, we had more tweaks than ever, right, you’re very simplistic measures, but it tells you where that person’s head is. And a doctor and a flashlight will help you find it. But in terms of true volume, that’s what they care about is we want more and more and more. So it makes no even basic business sense to say, Yeah, let’s let’s let’s completely restrict people who are not paying so that we can have less activity less avond inventory and be able to sell less, fewer ads.
Katie Robbert 22:01
So question, because I can sort of see how these dots could be connected. But I don’t know if they’re the right dots to connect. Is shadow banning something that only exists on a social media platform? So for example, could someone say I think my blog is being shadow banned from Google? Because it doesn’t show up in search?
Christopher Penn 22:25
People can make that claim.
Katie Robbert 22:28
But is that really but obviously, that’s not really what’s happening? It’s that it’s not optimized correctly, it’s not answering a useful question. There’s no, Google doesn’t see that there’s any value to showing this like is that Google’s version of shadow banning?
Christopher Penn 22:42
In a sense, like, we know that PageRank, which is was the original algorithm from 1999, was a graph network. It literally was this, the number of links going into a site, indicate that, you know, that site has validity. If you’re out there musing about, you know, whatever, and shouting into ether, and you’ve got your blog, and no one links to it. Gosh, I can’t imagine why Google wouldn’t show the search results, right? Because nobody thinks you’re credible. And again, I know we’re going to talk about this on an upcoming episode. When you look at the search quality rating guidelines that Google puts out and says, you know, here’s what quality content looks like, here’s the you know, how we we make a lot of these judgments, the machine learning models that power these things, take into account those networks. And if if you are, you know, like in this example, is graphic, you’re way out here in the in the suburbs, and nobody’s talking about you. You don’t have from a mechanistic perspective, you don’t have expertise. You don’t have experience, you don’t have authority, you don’t have trustworthiness, or you shadowbanned. I mean, I guess in the sense that Google does not think you are credible, and therefore is not going to show your stuff. But is it because Google hates you? No, it’s because you’re not doing what Google told you to do.
Katie Robbert 24:01
And so I feel like we keep coming back to the same action of number one, you need to understand the rules and regulations of the platform that you’re trying to post on, whether that be a search engine, or a social media platform, or probably even a private community where you can be muted or banned. So number one, make sure you’re following the guidelines and you’re playing the game following someone else’s rules. And number two, just post good content post content that your audience cares about and you shouldn’t have an issue. And then if you are for some reason, Shadow banned, then the way to get yourself out of shadow banning purgatory is to start to engage with people that you care about that you want in your network. So if I was shadow banned on Twitter, I would then look to Chris your account and John your account and be like, Hey guys, I’m going to start you know reengage Didn’t restart sharing and, you know, commenting and liking so that I can get myself out of purgatory.
Christopher Penn 25:07
And there’s a number three is network network with other people do stuff that helps validate you. So for example, this whole Warrior Nun thing that I, part of what happens when, when you’re a part of a group, look at how many people are tagging me into stuff, and I’m not even posting, I’m not even publishing this stuff I just got tagged into it. And suddenly, you have all these mentions all these network connections, hundreds of them a day. At this point, I could probably do pretty much anything that was not an outright violation, which was rules. And my account would be fine, because you have all these incoming signals saying, hey, this account is super valid, because everybody’s referencing it. There’s a lot of activity within the network that is that are positive signals. So you to what you’re saying, hey, good content, yeah, is important, but so is the network of people to support you. And this is why we keep emphasizing over and over again, your community is so vital, if you’re if you don’t have as a brand as a market, if you do not have a community, you are hosed. Because you will be that little.on The outside yelling into the ether, right? You will not be marketing profs you will not be Liotta, and you will not be Katie robear on the network, because no one’s talking about you build that community, right, you know, think about the analytics remarketing slack group, right, which we have over here. It’s 3000 people what happens when we post a piece of content to that? Well, that was we asked people to tweet about it, what happens when we ask people to share it, we we create that authority, these signals in these algorithms that this is valid. And the more that we can leverage our community and have our community leverage us and participate in their stuff, the better we all do. But yeah, and I know it goes totally against literally everything I believe in, but you can’t do it alone, right? You cannot do marketing alone anymore. Because the way these algorithms work, they are driven by people’s behavior, a crowds behavior, and you need a crowd.
Katie Robbert 27:28
Good luck, Chris. I know how much of a people person you are.
Christopher Penn 27:31
I know, I’m delighted,
Katie Robbert 27:34
I think you should keep me around a little longer.
John Wall 27:37
Another part of this too, though, is how most, especially on the search side, like they don’t have to do shadow banning, because they just create enough gates to the content, you know, your content needs to basically score high enough to be shown and shared, right? If your stuff is junk, you’re not going to accumulate the points. Whereas the idea with the shadow ban is at some point, a finger gets put on the scale. And it’s like, okay, know, your content is doing well enough, but we’re going to throttle it and not show it. But in so there’s been two big pieces of that one is just the timeout box, we see that used all the time of just like, okay, for two weeks, you can’t post and your stuffs not seen for two weeks. But then the other one is to actually, you know, get kicked off the platform or be sent home and you know, not be able to come back on. And unfortunately, like both of those require human intervention. And that’s why we see, you know, the network’s doing such a poor job of it. And they basically fall back to this point of, well, we can’t guarantee it’s not going to be seen by anyone like it’s gonna go out and the people that follow them and want to see that stuff will still see it. But we can at least try and throttle the spread to the rest of the world. But is there anything out there? As far as you know, once you’ve been thrown in the penalty box for something, I mean, basically, you can appeal and say, reinstate my account if it’s reinstated. Or if you’re locked out for two weeks, you just have to sit and watch the clock. Is there anything else that can really be done
Christopher Penn 29:00
on any of the networks? It depends on the network. You know, think about the OG shadow ban, the OG shadow ban is you’re a spammer. And we’re not gonna deliver your email, right? So you can send all the email you want, but you’re on every blacklist that there is. So you basically have to burn your server down and then buy a new one because you’re never getting your email delivered. Again. It’s all algorithmic. So, to my knowledge, anything that’s using a graph network, particularly a temporal graph network, which we talked about last week, over time, those embeddings that are time based fade away, right? It’s like a half light, that’s like a decay. Eventually, those thresholds raise up and you might start getting the scene again, the expressway out of that is to the best of your ability, you’ll make sure that you’ve got the that insurance policy of a strong network of people that are constantly engaging with your stuff, so that you keep those signals. You keep the volume of positive signals far above any negative signals. And you stay Ahead of the algorithm
Katie Robbert 30:06
Well, I mean, I think I think that kind of covers that. I mean, the, the big takeaways are you can look at your analytics to understand if you’ve been shadow banned. You know, if there’s no reach, if there’s no engagement, if there were no impressions to the things that you’re posting, you may have been shadow banned. And then, you know, the way to start to get out of that is to start to engage with other posts like you posting while your shadow banned. It’s not going to change anything, you engaging you liking, you resharing will help get you out of that purgatory place. And also just make sure you didn’t violate the regulations of whatever platform you’ve been banned on.
Christopher Penn 30:50
Exactly. And build your network in whatever format and wherever it is, whether it’s a Slack community with your email list, whether it’s on multiple social networks, build that community of people around you, because that’s what will provide the positive signals to algorithms to, to let you back in. So if you don’t have that community, it’s going to be a lot harder. That’s that’s the way it is. If you look at Twitter, for example, you look at some of the people who are posting stuff, you’re like, wow, that’s really not okay. But you look at the metrics on their posts, you know, hundreds of 1000s of likes and 10s of 1000s of retweets like, Well, clearly, they have their network and that network acts as a protection against their account does getting canned even though they’re saying ridiculous things like the Earth is square and flat instead of rounded sphere like mail. Apparently, you’ve got enough people to agree with you that that the, the logic of the network of the algorithm overrules basic common sense.
Katie Robbert 31:58
Well, you can’t fix stupid.
Christopher Penn 32:00
You sure can’t. But you can monetize the daylights out of it. Thanks for tuning in. We’ll see you all next time. Thanks for watching today. Be sure to subscribe to our show wherever you’re watching it. For more resources. And to learn more, check out the Trust Insights podcast at trust insights.ai/t AI podcast, and a weekly email newsletter at trust insights.ai/newsletter Got questions about what you saw on today’s episode. Join our free analytics for marketers slack group at trust insights.ai/analytics for marketers, see you next time.
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