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So What? What is the PESO Model™?

So What? Marketing Analytics and Insights Live

airs every Thursday at 1 pm EST.

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In this week’s episode of So What? we focus on the PESO Model™. We walk through what it is with creator Gini Dietrich, how to measure the impact of your marketing, and where to find training in the PESO Model™ for your agency.

Catch the replay here:

So What? What is the PESO Model™?

In this episode you’ll learn: 

  • What the PESO Model™ is from creator Gini Dietrich
  • How to measure the impact of your marketing with the PESO Model™
  • Where to get training in the PESO Model™ for your agency

Upcoming Episodes:

  • TBD

Have a question or topic you’d like to see us cover? Reach out here:

AI-Generated Transcript:

John Wall 0:40
Hello and welcome to so what the Trust Insights livestream. Man, I haven’t broken anything yet. This is fantastic. We are here. We’ve got you may have noticed that of course Katy robear CEO is not here she is traveling this week, as is Christopher Penn. So I am stuck, they left the clown in charge of the circus

Gini Dietrich 1:03
and brought me in. Great and

John Wall 1:05
turn the clowning up another notch just for you. The one and only Gini Dietrich is here she is the founder and CEO of Armand Dietrich. And you probably already know her from the spin sex podcasts and sex website, Slack community. She is the creator of the PESO model, which we’re going to be talking about. That’s what and you know, normally I kind of get into the stories but I have to follow the so what you know very dry into the point thing, we have promised Peso and we are going to deliver that meat here. Everybody gets what they want. I’m we’ve done a bunch of live streamers on to feel free to throw in questions via the chat from whether it’s LinkedIn or YouTube wherever you’re watching. But Jenny, thanks for joining me today.

Gini Dietrich 1:47
It is my pleasure. And I have to tell you, that 30 seconds lasts forever in two occasions, one when you’re riding your bike as fast and as hard as you can for 30 seconds. And two when you’re waiting for this to start.

John Wall 2:01
So the run

Gini Dietrich 2:03
was like 3635 Oh my gosh, we’re not there yet.

John Wall 2:07
Hasn’t happened? No, we I have a whole little routine. I have this special claw that I have to wave in front of the camera right before time elapses. It’s just become a thing that we do, because it makes everybody else laugh. I don’t know why I do it. Because it’s. So yeah, here we go. Chip, your co host is already heckling from the crowd. Yeah, that

Gini Dietrich 2:29
does seem appropriate.

John Wall 2:31
Alright, so we’ll hide that and go. But we did. Let’s jump in. Now you’ve come up with a framework for marketing, communications, PR, called peso. Tell us about that. Give us the thumbnail of what it is and what it does, and go from there.

Gini Dietrich 2:43
Sure. So the the genesis of PESO model, which is paid media, earned media, shared media and owned media, really was in my agency, we were trying to figure out how to create work that was more consistent and drove results for our clients. And what we found is that, you know, 10 years ago, we were doing a lot of media relations and reputation and crisis work, which is great, and it’s profitable, and all those kinds of things. But when there’s not something happening, there’s a law, right. And clients don’t like to pay an agency when it their seeming, seemingly not doing anything. And because there would be sort of these peaks and valleys, clients would go, Well, what are you doing right now. And we’re like, what we’re pitching and we’re and they don’t, they weren’t able to comprehend that. So we were looking for things that we could sort of even it out so that during those valleys, we had something that was consistently going on that we could use to drive results. And this was at a time that social media was becoming a thing. And certainly, blogging was becoming a thing. podcasting wasn’t quite there, but it was on the cusp. So there were these things that were happening, that we were like, Oh, wow, we can actually use these tactics in our toolbox to help sort of even out the work so that there’s something always going on, and use that to drive results that an executive cares about. So when I wrote spintex, the book, I talked about the process, and I talked about how we were doing this, and why. And you know, the kinds of things that you could do, you could do blogging, you could do social media, you could do search engine marketing, you could do influencer marketing, there were all these things that you could do. And my publisher said, This is great. It needs a name. And I was like, but I already wrote the book. She’s like, No, we can we can do a second draft. I’m like, No, I already wrote the book that she’s like, No, we’re gonna do a second draft. I don’t want to do a second draft. So we will round and round and round. And they actually helped me get okay to use peso because it’s a currency, right? So we didn’t know if there was gonna be a copyright issue. And so they worked us through that. And then and so we named it the Pacer model. And then she said, Great, we need a graphic to go with it. And I’m like, but I already wrote the book. And she’s like, Yeah, but we can do a third draft and like, oh my gosh, never ends. Yeah, then And so I hired a designer created a graphic and the book was published. And here we are.

John Wall 5:08
Yeah. But it is, it’s just a classic example of taking something really huge and complicated and building a framework around it. And now anybody can run with it, because we have our whole traction model that we’ve put together. And peso just fits right into it. There’s a whole chunk of like all the possible marketing things you can do. You just plug peso right in there, and it likes all those cells at all. Yep. and gets it to go. Now, how about you were talking about measuring too, though, and being able to kind of show what you do? How does measurement fit into to peso? And where do you go with that?

Gini Dietrich 5:38
Sure. One of the things I think from a PR perspective, especially is that we’re really challenged with measuring the work that we do, because we do brand awareness, right. So brand awareness is is extremely challenging to measure, you can certainly do it with you know, aided and unaided brand awareness studies, it’s expensive, you can really only do them once a year. You can do sentiment studies, you can you can do those kinds of things. But what we have found, especially in the last five or so years, as IT executives don’t really care, what they care about is, is this money I’m spending with you translating to dollars. And if you can’t prove that, you’re, we’re not going to work with you. So bring bringing in the PESO model as your foundation really helps with that. Because now you have more than just media relations, you have content, you have social media, you have search engine marketing, you have all these other pieces that you can measure. And you can show. Yeah, so okay, we did some earned media, we did some media relations, and a story ran in the Wall Street Journal. And here’s what happened. We had a 30% increase in webs unique website visitors, and here’s what they did 10% Of those, subscribe to our marketing, email, and, you know, 5% downloaded content, and like, you can actually prove that now, especially from a digital perspective, and the pace and model allows you to have all those tactics in your toolbox to be able to do that.

John Wall 7:00
Yeah, and this, it’s good. You mentioned this five year window, too, because as part of this deal is go hosting today is that I’m going to run this as marketing over coffee next week, we’re gonna be Oh, great. No, powerlifters over there. We you’ve talked to them last time, we talked to his back just before the pandemic. And one of the things that you had laid out then was that you thought that over the next five years that communications and PR would just be rolled into marketing almost entirely, just because of what you just mentioned about executives that only care about results, they don’t care about the structure. But has that really come to pass? I mean, or do executives now just view this all as marketing? Or is PR comms still a thing?

Gini Dietrich 7:39
It depends for sure. It depends on the organization, and what the executive sort of how the executive was, quote, unquote, raised, you know, if an executive came up through the ranks, on the sales side, they don’t give a shit. If they came up through the ranks, and communications was a big part of what they know, then they do. So we will have one client that’s a global client, and they have a 20 person communications team. We have another client that has a 35 person team, but it’s the marketing team, it folds under the Chief Marketing Officer and everything, even the communications team fall falls under that. So it depends. And we have another client where we’re reporting to HR. So it’s, it used to be that we only report it to the CEO and now we’re reporting to a CMO or HR in some cases are still the CEO.

John Wall 8:27
Okay, and Chip did ask Will I be paying Jenny for the extra second use? And I have to say yes, we will be paying double the toe Tinos party pizza. Gina Jennyfer. This kind of

Gini Dietrich 8:41
such a great inside joke.

John Wall 8:45
How about, you know, bring us up to date to though. So again, as last time we talked to us prior to COVID? How is that change everything like? You are just getting involved with Syracuse, like everything was going to take off. You were going to be doing PE so college level, and suddenly there’s no college. So what’s gone on there?

Gini Dietrich 9:02
Suddenly, there’s no college? Yeah. So we did we launched the PESO model in partnership with Syracuse University on February, it was like February 20, I think of 2020. And we all know what happened. But the good news is, is that what we found is it didn’t it didn’t go the way that we planned, which I think is is the case with most things, right. But because everybody was learning, virtually. And the PESO model course, is a virtual course we were able to insert it into classes really easily. And we still do that. So I think we’re in 4041 between 41 and 43 colleges now, universities now into their PR programs. And we’ve created this opportunity for anybody who’s graduating with a PR marketing journalism or advertising degree in many of those cases, has a PESO model certification, which is fantastic. And then what we have found is on the the professional side that you know, a PR remarketing professional, they are taking it as well to either evolve their skill set, learn a new skill set, learn how to implement the pace or model and become certified in the model. So we do a nice little run there as well.

John Wall 10:23
Alright, and one thing that gets passed up a lot of you know, people focus on being able to dump this stuff into channels specifically, but a big thing that you talk about that I love to hear more about, is having a communication strategy, where you’re running the same stuff across every channel where you’re getting some, you know, value by having it be on all fronts, because so many organizations are just pumping stuff, you know, it’s completely unrelated garbage across the channel. So how do you get your clients, you know, on all in order and get all the ducks in a line so that it’s all moving in the same direction.

Gini Dietrich 10:54
Sometimes it’s very challenging. We have one client who hired us almost two years ago and said, We want you to implement the PESO model inside our organization. And we were like, great in my team. And I got in there and realize that they had each of the media types, they had teams for a paid, they had a paid team call it they call it with marketing, they had an earned team communications, they had a social team. And they had a content team, which was great, but they didn’t talk to one another. So you’re right, all of this stuff was happening, but they weren’t working together. And then they also have an internal team who was creating their own content and sharing it internally. And employees were super excited about it, but it wasn’t going external at all. So that’s what we found is we they had these great big silos. So we probably spent the first 13 or 14 months breaking those silos down and helping them develop relationships with other people on the teams and not hoarding information. And, you know, sharing, here’s our editorial calendar, what can we do to boost some of this content or do some sponsored content? So, you know, we in I would say, in the last seven months, we’ve actually been able to start doing real PESO model work. But it took us more than a year to be able to do that.

John Wall 12:12
Yeah, it’s just kind of crazy how that, again, people can just be going in different directions and to take over a year to get in line and back where it should be. Yeah. I had a question come in John blue said he was not able to make it today. But he did want to ask about press releases. What’s your current take? That’s, and that’ll work for audio only. So first, is there nothing left at that venue is completely throw that overboard?

Gini Dietrich 12:40
I mean, there are situations if you’re doing investor relations, for sure. Like if you have to report for the SEC, absolutely. You need to do a news release. But for the most part, nobody really cares anymore. And you’re pitched all the time. John? Can does it work for you?

John Wall 12:56
Oh, my God, those go to the dumpsters. Right. So fast.

Gini Dietrich 12:59
You don’t care? No one cares. Send me a three sentence email that tells me why I should pay attention. Why I care and what you know. And by golly, if I get one more email that says, I love to spend six podcast you should have so and so as a guest. We don’t have guests.

John Wall 13:17
Yeah, that’s worse for you. Like we at least do have guests not here, but on marketing over coffee. But yet the best is went to the you know, they screw up the form. And it’s like, Hey, I love every episode, you do have the marketing book podcast. And I’m like, yeah, no, that was, you know, I’m the next guy. Right? That’s yeah, they just messed with having like, a unique rejection template. Yeah, I’ve got one, sir, you actually sent in a question here asking about as you’re doing campaigns, you know, how do you judge what successful or not? And, you know, is there any other model besides peso to consider for that?

Gini Dietrich 13:56
I mean, I don’t think there’s any other model besides peso. But certainly there are integrated marketing communications models that you can use that work. But you know, one of the things that we look at is, and I’m going to take this with a grain of salt of you to do consumer or nonprofit work for you, because we only do B2B. But the work that we do has to be related to marketing leads, marketing, qualified leads, sales, qualified leads and conversions. It just does everything that we do has to point to one of those four things. And because we’re using the PESO model, we can say, Okay, our earned media efforts drove this number of of marketing leads, and then our own media efforts, drove took those marketing leads and and drove a certain percent of them to marketing qualified. And then, you know, all this other stuff that we do from a patient model perspective, generated sales, qualified leads, and then we hand it over to the sales team. So when we’re reporting on things, I’m really careful to say the the marketing and communications program influenced and then I say $1 amount, so I just sent a report to a client yesterday for February and it said Our program in February influence $379,000 in revenue, the sales team gets credit for converting that. Right. But we have influenced that front by lead generate nurturing them through the process.

John Wall 15:14
Yeah, that makes sense. And how about as far as the marketing mix to it, because we’ve talked in the past about how you know pay. So it works but actually paid is not the first choice like most people are would lead with owned? Do you have a formula for that? Or is it that you go into every client and come up with a plan based on what they’re doing?

Gini Dietrich 15:31
Yeah, it depends on on the organizational goals, right. I mean, there are some instances where you would start with paid if you’re trying to sell widgets in the next two weeks and sell out of target. That’s a great place to start with paid but for the most part, it especially if you’re using peso from a commerce perspective, it really is you’re building thought leadership authority and reputation and to do that you need to start with own

John Wall 15:54
okay. We have another comment. Our company’s

Oh, that’s, it looks like an eagle.

Gini Dietrich 16:08
Birdie. He has the mittens and everything. And he’s mascot. Oh,

John Wall 16:11
yeah. He’s durational festival there with the mom made that for me. Oh, no way. That’s handmade too. That’s not Yes. bespoke? All right, well, swing on over to Pinterest for only 9995. doll made we’ll set this up small fee for Jenny’s mom. But that’d be excellent. How about now since we last talked Tiktok is on the scene. Is that on your radar at all? You’re doing anything with that? And is that something that people need to be paying attention to?

Gini Dietrich 16:44
I mean, it’s like anything else? Right? It depends. I would say for consumer businesses, especially fashion and food. Yeah, you should be for B2B brands that we work with no. And I’m also really paying close attention to what is happening from a government regulation perspective. There was an article just this morning that talked about, you know, Biden is behind the bill to start to ban Tiktok. And they’ve already banded on government phones, which I think makes sense. But that that could become an issue for sure. And so you have to really pay attention not to just the trend and what’s happening and how you can potentially use it in your own business and your own comms or marketing program. But what’s happening more globally as well, because it could very well go away tomorrow.

John Wall 17:30
Yeah, there’s so much going on that friend. I don’t know what happened here. But stream yard suddenly just woke up and pumped like 25 comments into what something was broken. And even my camera’s out of focus to I don’t know what, this is ridiculous. The dumps this

Gini Dietrich 17:46
is what happened. This is what happens when they leave you in charge. Yeah,

John Wall 17:49
as I say, this is the dumpster fire. Everybody has been waiting for it. And next week, we finally got it away. I’m back. This is Rebecca asked if your mom would make a chip Griffin doll. So

Gini Dietrich 18:00
absolutely. Yes, I will have her do that. That’s a really good idea. Rebecca, like it. Keep it back there during the agency leadership podcasts.

John Wall 18:10
a voodoo doll that you could stamp every time I stab him. He’s a well, it depends. All right, back on the bus back where it needs to be going here. Twitter, everything going on over there. Are you steering folks away from that? Is that still should that be part of your factor?

Gini Dietrich 18:33
You know, we’re not steering people away. I laughed out loud when Chris let earlier this week was earlier this week that the Twitter was down because somebody was messing with something. And it’s like Chris takes great joy in in the dumpster fire. It makes me laugh. It makes me laugh really hard. But we’re not steering people away. Because still I mean for what we do for a living still reporters are using it pretty liberally to find sources and destroy it is. So from a communications perspective, we are definitely not steering people away. But we aren’t also aren’t doing anything new. Like we were launching a new podcast with a client and they wanted to do it on Twitter, Twitter live and we’re like knew, let’s stay away from that. Let’s not put our eggs in that basket. So you know, from that perspective, we are steering them away, but not entirely.

John Wall 19:25
Yeah, that makes sense. I don’t know. It’s just so bizarre. Well, how about as a comms person for yourself. It’s, it’s so bizarre that we have a media outlet and yet all of the internal company politics are playing out right in front on the stage in front of us. I mean, it’s the insane thing is that it’s crossing over to Tesla as a public company, too. I mean,

Gini Dietrich 19:44
I know. It’s nuts. Some what happened last something happened last week, their stock price dropped. Because I think because of the recalls. And I was like well, that’s because their founders busy putting another company into the ground

John Wall 19:58
like July Random sip. Yeah, it’s I’ve never seen anything like this. It’s amazing. And we’ll keep an eye on it. But so that’s, yeah, again, something to steer. But it’s interesting also that there is no recipe for channels because like we see this all the time, we see so many customers that, you know, just LinkedIn is where they need to be, because they’re that B2B audience. And that’s where the fit is. But then there’s other clients where it’s still Facebook ads. I mean, for everything that people have said about Facebook, too. There’s folks where that’s, you know, where their audience is? I don’t know, is there anything new on that front, too, as far as when you go in with a client and start putting this together? Determining which channels you want to run with? I mean, if they have some successful ones, great, but where do you start to look when you want to suggest other things to try?

Gini Dietrich 20:41
We so it’s a bit depends on the organization, for sure. But what we find is that most are on LinkedIn and not doing anything else. And so we look at, you know, we’ll look at Instagram, for sure, depending on on which organization it is, we look at Facebook as well, but Instagram ads work really well. And I know that people are like, I don’t want to give Facebook any money, but man, they make you a lot of money, make you a lot of money.

John Wall 21:07
Ya know, the turnaround on that kind of stuff is just amazing. If it works right for you, you can just jumping into how about and working that for customers? As far as how far your agency goes? Do you actually get in and start to do that kind of actual tactics for customers? Or what’s the breadth of service that you cover?

Gini Dietrich 21:25
Yeah, I mean, we have I mentioned that we have one client that does that has a 20 person comms team. And so from for with them, what we’re really doing is strategic coaching, and consulting. And helping them just, you know, outline a strategy and then giving them a plan to execute internally. And then we have several clients who don’t have a marketing person. And so we become the marketing team for them. And in those cases, the goal is to hire onboard and train a marketing team so that eventually we either exit or we do more strategic strategic consulting. But that’s actually the work we love the most because we’re inside but not employees. And it’s really fun work. It’s really fun work.

John Wall 22:08
Yeah, well, I mean, what do you enjoy the most? I know, one thing that would stuff like that is you do get to be the truth teller. You know, so many organizations are doing campaigns, and the people, you know, involved with them are vested in their success. So they don’t always give the best info. Right. What other things do you enjoy about it that what else makes it you know, the strategic side?

Gini Dietrich 22:28
I think it’s that it’s also I mean, just doing the work in a different way for an organization and showing success. I mean, like I mentioned earlier, we influenced in February $379,000 in revenue for a client in one month. That’s super compelling, right? I mean, that’s really fun work to be able to say, this is everything that we’re doing. And we also have an opportunity to, to your point where we can say, this isn’t working like we thought it would. So let’s try this. And many executives really appreciate that approach where they’re like, Okay, well, let’s stop spending the money there. And let’s put it into into here. You know, for instance, we have one client who was spending about $7,500 a month on Google ads, with literally no success, not fit. No, they didn’t have anybody running it. They just had ads created. And yeah. So we shut the ads off probably for about six months. And then we said, Okay, we’re ready to reinstate this, but you have to actually have somebody running it so that we brought somebody from my team in to run those ads for them. But yeah, it’s it’s, it’s really compelling. Because we get get to actually do the work, which is a lot more fun than coaching and consulting.

John Wall 23:41
Yeah. And there’s the value of Now, when you talk to other clients, you know what you’re talking about, you know, you’re actually have your hands dirty and know how that stuff, right? Yep, one thing in the rundown, we did promise that we would talk about where to get training on peso for your agency, I know you have you have the Slack community, you have courses available, what are the best ways to get your team up and running with us?

Gini Dietrich 24:01
We have the basil model certification, which is a certificate certificate from Syracuse University from their school of public communications. And it’s probably the most robust thing that you can do. There’s certainly you know, places on the internet like with prsa, and other places where I’ve done less expensive training, but it isn’t the full robust plan, and it doesn’t include the certification. So if you want to be certified in the model, the best way to do it is you can find it on spin socks. But get that certificate from Syracuse while you’re doing it.

John Wall 24:38
All right, that sounds great. Yeah, I know. You don’t normally we have to have people tell us where to plug in. But I know spin is just the one stop easy. You don’t have to spend time and so I wanted to give a plug to for Strava we are both on Strava I always get a laugh whenever I do a workout and I see a thumbs up from Ginny. It’s her sticking your tongue out at me

Gini Dietrich 24:59
which My husband bought me a shirt for Christmas that says if it’s not on Strava it doesn’t it didn’t happen.

John Wall 25:06
Yeah, people don’t realize the dark side does Strava you know, people think it’s like a happy workout thing. They don’t realize that there are groups of people who punish those who don’t post, you know, printer if you’ve actually read to dig way back and old school references. Alright, I It seems I have like the wheel of shame that we usually spin and it’s, you know, MFTs AI, or whatever the shiny object of the week is. Talk beforehand about AI. Is there anything peso related and AI that you’re looking at her interest? I mean, obviously, copywriting is been talked a lot about lately, but what’s on your radar?

Gini Dietrich 25:43
Yeah, I would say the copywriting for sure is, you know, I have a really, really talented writer on my team. And she had writer’s block a couple of weeks ago. And she was like, I just, I can’t get past this. And I know I have a deadline. And I was like, here’s what I want you to do. I want you to go to chat, GBT, I want you to log in. And I want it to create a first draft for you. And she’s like, Can I do that? And I’m like, I’m your boss. And I’m telling you to. So she did. I was like, Well, I don’t want the first draft. I don’t want what chat GPT-2 pushes out. But it’ll give you something to react to. So you’re not staring at a blank screen. And it worked for so you know, we are looking at it from that perspective. I love Chris Penn’s analysis of all this, which was probably five years ago now where he said, the robots aren’t going to replace us. But you have to sort of become the conductor of the orchestra. So you have to know enough about all of the pieces to be able to say, yes, that’s doing it correctly. No, that’s not here’s what needs to be improved. Here’s what we’re going to tweak. So you’re conducting the orchestra of artificial intelligence to be able to get what you need. And I think that’s a really good description of where we’re going.

John Wall 26:49
Yeah, it’s interesting, all this stuff that he’s thrown out about that. It’s just obvious that his prompts are so much more effective and powerful than the average person because he’s thinking about it as a designer, even last week, he was talking about just telling Chet GBT to list your data and separate it with pipes, because then it will do hashes that you can just import right into a spreadsheet, you know, and I was like, Oh, my God had never thought of I wouldn’t have thought of that either. Yeah. So again, right on mark of like, oh, yeah, it makes the world better for people like Chris or the rest of us. We’re just in trouble. We’re just in trouble. But that’s kind of how that rolls. All right. Yeah. So again, anything else going on, though, on this front that you have to talk about? You have events coming up? Or what’s, you know, keeping you busy for the next few months?

Gini Dietrich 27:36
You know, we don’t you know, family is keeping me extraordinarily busy right now. But before we started recording, I think you guys are seeing this too. We’ve seen a massive increase in input on speaking engagements, like massive in the last two weeks. So I think people are getting back out there and hiring speakers again and doing events again, and you know, only took three years, but here we are.

John Wall 27:59
Alright, well, so family stuff has been keeping you busy. Any, you know, reading books, music, movies, anything else keeping you you know, that’s got you interested that you can recommend? I don’t think that left is a not so much.

Gini Dietrich 28:13
No, I’m laughing because we’re watching descendants right now. So it’s, we watch zombies one two and three last weekend on Disney plus, so yeah, that’s, yeah,

John Wall 28:25
yeah. Big Disney plus family. Okay, that sounds good. There’s Yeah, it for the right age group. You know, you cannot beat that service. That’s, that’s the best money you’ll ever spend, and entertaining the 12. And under crew, that’s for sure. All right, that sounds good. Well, again, spin If you want more, I have to do all the Trust Insights plugs, which I have failed to do as we go. The biggest one is, where is this day? Oh, no, no, this is legit. Come on over to trust For marketers, Ginny is over there and watching. So if you ask her a question, she may even answer it. And of course, the spins like Slack group is a great place for PR and communications, folks. Otherwise, that’s all I’ve got Jenny, thanks for spending some time with me today.

Gini Dietrich 29:10
That was so fun. I was happy to they should go on vacation more often.

John Wall 29:15
I’m not going to tell them that you can tell I can tell you that. This week, let me do the roll out. We thank everybody for taking the time to check out our show today. That’s going to do it for this week. We will see you next week. And I don’t know how else I’m going to end that. I’ve never had that in the show. deck but I could tell about that amazing time that I swim the English Channel and then

Christopher Penn 29:40
thanks for watching today. Be sure to subscribe to our show wherever you’re watching it. For more resources. And to learn more, check out the Trust Insights podcast at trust I podcast and a weekly email newsletter at trust Got questions about what you saw in today’s episode. Join our free analytics for markers slack group at trust for marketers See you next time

John Wall 30:24
you’re still here it’s over. Go home

Christopher Penn 30:26
goodbye alone.

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