So What? Marketing Analytics and Insights Live
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In this week’s episode of So What? we focus on how to be a good podcast guest. We walk through lessons learned from 15 years of podcasting, how to deal with a bad podcast host and how to measure your performance as a podcast guest. Catch the replay here:
In this episode you’ll learn:
- lessons learned from 15 years of podcasting
- dealing with a bad podcast host
- how to measure your performance as a podcast guest
Have a question or topic you’d like to see us cover? Reach out here: https://www.trustinsights.ai/resources/so-what-the-marketing-analytics-and-insights-show/
Katie Robbert 0:19
Well, hey everyone, Happy Thursday. Welcome to So What? the marketing analytics and insights live show. I am Katie joined by the one and only John J. Wall. Hulu, Chief statistician of Trust Insights all around, swell guy.
John Wall 0:33
I’m here I’ve got the numbers.
Katie Robbert 0:38
This week, Chris is at the MAE con event in Cleveland. He took the stage this morning to really great reception and feedback, he told was talking about the future of marketing, using large learning models. So definitely check that out if you can, any of the replays, you can also go to where can I get the slides.com and check out his talk there. So today, John and I are talking about how to be a good podcast guest. Now, this is a topic that people when we when we posted, there goes my light. When we posted that this was going to be our topic this week. A lot of people have expressed interest because we often talk about making a podcast, and how to be a good host and what questions to ask in the interview. But we thought we would sort of flip it to the reverse of what if you’re asked to be on a podcast? How do you continue to ask to be asked to be on podcasts? And so John, because you have oh gosh, 15 years of podcasting experience. You started when you were 15?
John Wall 1:47
Right, right. Unfortunately, I still having to podcast had I done this right? Wealthy and retired. But here we are.
Katie Robbert 1:54
You know, so we’ll talk about lessons learned dealing with a bad podcast host. So if you’re a guest, and the host is just kind of sucking wind, how to salvage it so that you still have a good interview? And then how to measure your performance as a podcast guest. This was one that people expressed a lot of interest in of what the heck does that even mean? So John, as an OG podcaster, where would you like to start today?
John Wall 2:21
Yeah, well, it’s, you know, this, as we always do write, you have to back up a bit to your strategic reasons, like, why are you doing this? And you know, what are your five P’s like you, you need to sit down and say, okay, you know, yeah, it’s great to do podcasts. But why are you doing this? Like, what’s the goal? Are you just trying to get your voice out there? Are you trying to push a product? Are you trying to promote something else you’ve got going? Is it more to learn about a specific vertical or to become established as an expert there, so and all of that stuff changes everything that happens downstream, you know, because for some things, like, if you’re promoting a book, like you don’t care, you will just get on every single podcast with every, you know, Tom, Dick, and Harry and talk about anything with anybody as long as they get the link right to the book. Whereas if you’re trying to prove expertise, or you’re you have a specific cause or view of the world that you want to get out there, you really want to take the time to make sure that you’re matched with the right platform and the right audience. And yeah, you know, it’s funny, you had a lot of people wanting to hear more about, you know, how to handle host or how to deal with bad questions and all that kind of stuff. And again, that strategic to you kind of have to look at these as they come in or look to the ones you’re going to reach out to, and say, Is this the right one for me? Like, how am I going to handle this? How am I going to deal with it? And I mean, it even gets crazier, too, if you’re doing more mainstream stuff. Like there are guests and shows where you’re expected to fight and disagree and have a, you know, bad experience, which is more because it’s for the entertainment of the the people watching. So yeah, there’s a bunch of places to go. But I guess we can definitely start with five Ps. Are there stories that you are, you know, you think are closest to what we want to talk about today, as far as where people need to go?
Katie Robbert 4:03
Yeah, so and I think your your, where you mentioned, John, of what is the purpose of doing these interviews in the first place is really important. When we first started Trust Insights, I thought that I needed to be doing just as many interviews as Chris for awareness, but I didn’t have a strong story to tell at that time. And so it was hard, because I would get on these podcasts. And the first thing that people would ask me about was Chris, and that wasn’t necessarily the right story, because it wasn’t really talking about the company. It was just sort of talking about people were curious about Chris Penn, you know, the futurist speaker. And so I had to take a step back, you know, I had to really dig deep and figure out what is the purpose of Katie robear being interviewed on a podcast, Katie robear, being on a stage talking about something and you It actually took a couple years for me to really figure out what my story was and how it benefited the company. And so the purpose for me is to drive awareness to the company, for marketers, and other professionals who are trying to understand technology, but not in a futuristic way. But in a more pragmatic, what do I need to do today? kind of way. So I look at myself as the one on one version of the really advanced technology, not in a, you know, I’m catering to a lesser audience. But anyway, that I’m trying to represent people who are newer to a lot of these concepts.
John Wall 5:45
Yeah, and that’s right at the heart of what we face was so much of this stuff, as a marketer, we see this all the time, is that, you know, the audience is irrational, right? Like, we definitely thought many times we were like, well, we have the Trust Insights way of doing things that Chris Penn has helped put together. Basically, any of us can go and talk about this process, because it’s, you know, it’s the, the first 20 steps you take, you know, it’s not this stuff way out in the horizon that Chris works on as side projects. It’s all there. But what yeah, we just run into over and over again, is like, yeah, people will pay $20,000 to get Chris. But if anybody URI are like, well, you know, we actually do the exact same deck, and we’ll do it for 5000 bucks. So like, ya know, we really want Chris Penn to come, you know, they just have that celebrity mindset. And then they have ulterior motives to write a lot of them. Maybe they don’t care at all about the topic. They’re looking at Christmas, 225,000 Twitter followers, and they’re like, this could really promote our event, you know, him saying, He’s speaking, we’re actually buying advertising, it has nothing to do with, you know, having him on the show or whatever. So yeah, you make a great point, and that you’re having your red thread, you know, that Tamsin Webster talks about as far as here’s, you know, why I speak, this is what I do, this is where we go. And that gives you a solid map for, you know, where the next stop should be. So, you know, classic one, for me is always marketing over coffee related stuff, right. So as host of marketing over coffee, I am always looking for opportunities to further promote the show and highlight the expertise of not only myself, but Trust Insights, and you being you and Chris. So there’s a clear map of where to go that like, I’m not going to hit a bunch of other marketing podcasts to talk about what they have going on, right. But the idea is that, I go on to the sewing podcast, where they decide to do their once a year episode on what’s happening in marketing, for sewing people for tailors and for you know, whatever, but you bring a different message and a different story, and it makes you a valuable guest. So it’s not that you’re kind of rehashing or challenging your hosts for expertise, you’re going in a very specific and clear direction. And, you know, and then the easy five, the one is like, I have my new book, I need to sell more copies. So I’m going to be on all these podcasts. And that one is a different approach that when you will go on every single marketing podcast, and just not be promoting your own podcast, it’s not competitive, you’re saying, Hey, here’s my book, you know, go get the book, download the first chapter do do all this stuff. So you know, what you want to accomplish? Definitely to set up the Domino’s, for figuring out who to deal with. And if you’re going to take a Podrick, if you’re going to ask or if you’re asked if you’re going to take it.
Katie Robbert 8:29
So what you know, you’ve been interviewing guests for, you know, a very long time on Marketing over coffee. So sometimes it’s you and Chris, and you have a really easy report back and forth, you sort of know when to pick up and put down the conversation with each other and give each other sort of that equal airtime. But when you have a guest, what are some of the what are some of the guests that things that your guests on your show have done wrong, that have caused you to sort of heavily edit the show? And I would imagine that one of the things is not knowing when to stop talking?
John Wall 9:04
Yeah, but it’s the key thing is it’s just like the same on being the guest side is that as the host, you have to do all your homework, you know, like, nope, for marketing over coffee. Nobody gets invited on the show. If I haven’t at least heard the person on another podcast or watched a YouTube video or something. Like I already know that they can speak coherently. They don’t have to have done 20 keynotes, but at least I’m gonna watch some things and say, okay, yeah, this person can represent themselves and present themselves. And then we have it good and that, you know, we’re covering marketing and tech, and these are we’re usually always dealing with professionals. So I have never had anybody that couldn’t just like give their introduction and make their pitch and, you know, kind of get people in the right direction. So, but if you’re not, you know, as lucky as us to have people that are already running their mouths as a profession. The thing you do with guests is it’s unfortunately, you know, everybody Thanks. So much of podcasting is supposed to be organic and just off the cuff, but it’s really prep and rehearsal. You know, you sit down with the guests beforehand. And you and I do this a lot with our guests, even though they’re pros with what they do. I say, okay, look, we have the big story. And it’s like, for a lot of authors, it’s like, okay, so you have this new book out about organizational behavior, and behavior and management. And I, having read your book, here’s the five things that I think are the biggest things, and I’m going to hit you in order with these, and I even have it mapped out we have, you know, a tried and true thing of, we shoot for around 25 minutes, because that’s the average commute or gym, you know, treadmill workout or whatever. And it’s broken into three acts, we have, you know, there’s kind of an intro to establish what’s going on, and then dive deep in the second part, to, you know, kind of set up some conflict or figure out what the challenges are and how they solve them. And then third part is a wind down, and we always close on something more personal and individual to highlight them as a, you know, as a full human being that just like some kind of business machine. And, you know, they know that there’s going to be breaks between those two slots. That’s where the sponsor slots go to 60 minutes slots. And even as far as reviewing the sponsors with them, Hey, have you ever done any business with LinkedIn? Are you running any LinkedIn ads? Do you want to chime in? Because we have seen and proven that these organic ads where people just kind of say, oh, yeah, you know, I use HelloFresh, those meals are great. We love them too. Like that makes for great sponsorship opportunity. And in a perfect world, if it’s something that actually leads into content that you’re talking about, that’s worthwhile and educational. That’s just a complete killer. There’s basically makes the advertisement invisible. It’s doesn’t slow the conversation at all. So yeah, lining up with the big story is going to be having the list of questions. And I go, as far as I have a Google Doc that I do for every interview, and I said, I’m like you have full edit rights to this, like, go ahead and change it. And for like, like most people who are doing event prep, you know, at first I was like, Oh, my God, do I really want to give them access to this whole thing. But Google Docs does have full version control. Like you can go back and say, Okay, show me the changes they made last week. So you can just go in and scan and see what they’ve messed up or what and what they’ve deleted, you know, you have to be mindful of if there’s topics that they’re not going to want to talk about. Can’t talk about, whatever. But yeah, so having that written plan and rehearsing a little bit. Yeah, I rarely have to go as far as setting up a dry run, but sometimes, especially if their gear is questionable, you might want to even say like, Okay, here’s the stream yard blank, you know, let’s hop on at one o’clock tomorrow, and just hop on and answer a few questions or whatever, it just make sure that their videos good, their lighting is good, their sounds good, that they kind of know what the heck they’re doing. And if they’re working with a PR person, you know, the PR person can jump in, and you don’t have to take the heat for that you can just say, the PR person to look in, get them a good microphone or, you know, get their lighting fixed. You know, because we want them to look as good as we can. And then as far as running your mouth too long, that’s not a concern at all. Because we make no bones right upfront, it’s like, look, the show’s gonna be heavily edited. Okay, so we’re gonna have a conversation, and we’re gonna go wherever we want to go. And but if you if I ask you something, and you don’t like the answer, don’t think it’s the right place to go. Just say that. And we can delete the whole thing. And, yeah, there’s a lot of times for people where they go a little bit too far. And so you can just clip out a chunk from the center to tighten it up and make it more interesting. Or the other one is people have, it’s either timesavers or confidence things. But they’ll say things like, I’ll say like, what’s the state of the industry? And they’ll say, Well, from what I see, I think that and you can delete that whole chunk. Like we know, it’s what you see. And, you know, don’t just say that you think this, like you stand behind it, that that’s you and you can jump right to the meat. And that keeps the conversation tight and rolling. And it basically just makes everybody sound smarter, which is the ultimate goal that you’ve got that NPR sound.
Katie Robbert 13:52
As a podcast, yes, you brought up a lot of really good points. And so one of the things that as a guest as you were trying to determine if the fit is right, I think the preparedness of the host is a really good indicator as to whether or not it’s going to be a solid episode that you’re comfortable sharing. I’ve been on quite a few podcasts and I would say nine times out of 10, I’ll get some sort of prep email from the host or their production company ahead of time saying, you know, this is what to expect you’ve probably done this before, but here’s the list of questions we’re likely to cover. You know, if you want to do a prep call, we can do that. And then they’ll say, you know, we’ll share with you the episode before it goes live in case you want to, you know, make any corrections or anything like that and sort of like as a guest, knowing that you still have control over your story is a big deal. The other thing that I had to learn that I wasn’t doing very well on my first couple of you know, outings on a podcast was getting my bio down like pretty quickly because people want to just move past that and get into the conversation. Chances are, if they’re listening to your episode, they already know who you are. And so you don’t need to spend, you know, five minutes going through your pedigree of all of your accomplishments. It’s boring, people want to move past it, they already know who you are, they’re listening, they’re engaged. So keep them engaged by moving into the thing. And then, you know, as a guest, you know, telling jokes, that kind of thing, it’s fine, but being too self deprecating, and sort of second, guessing your own accomplishments does not make for good content, it makes you come across as really insecure. And people will start to question why they’re listening to you in the first place of like, well, you know, I know I’m a published author in the Pharmacoepidemiology journal, but it’s not really that big of a deal. I really just, you know, straightened a couple of periods. Like, none of that’s true. Like, I really am a published author, in the Pharmacoepidemiology. Journal, I can spell it and pronounce it, which is an accomplishment unto itself. And those are the things that like, that’s the reason why people are inviting me onto their shows, because there’s accomplishments that I’ve had in my career that I need to just stand behind, I don’t need to parade them around for the entire show. But I also don’t need to make myself like, you know, basically, like, undermine my own accomplishments, just because it’s weird to talk about yourself. It’s weird to talk about yourself, let’s be honest, for a lot of us, like people like, Oh, tell me about what you’re doing what you’re working on. Like, it can be really uncomfortable to toot your own horn. But that’s the reason you’re in these interviews, is so that you can do that. And if you’re not comfortable doing that, then you definitely need those dry runs and those practices. You know, as a guest, asking for a list of questions ahead of time, is always a good pro tip. And if the host is like, well, I don’t have a set list of questions. But here are the topics we could talk about, you know, to your point about that prep talk with the with the you know, the editing and the Google Doc, like that’s huge for people who aren’t as comfortable even if it’s just, you know, a podcast interview.
John Wall 17:08
Yeah, absolutely. Right. So there’s a bunch of things to unpack from that. As far as, if you’re the guest, then a lot of it just depends on how good the host is right? How fast the host establish you as an expert, and then how fast the host move into what’s the pitch and the interesting thing. So as somebody that wants to be on the show, when you’re listening to their other episodes, you can see if they have the chops to do that. In a perfect world, you’d hear something, just like the classic radio stuff you’ll hear all the time of, if they start with a sizzle reel, right? If they start with a 32nd clip of the guests saying something really provocative or way out there are crazy, like that really establishes as a, Hey, this is an interesting interview. And then another one is a lot of shows will you know, the intro will roll. And then a lot of times the host will come out and say, Hey, today’s guest is so and so this is what they do. But that’s all recorded at a different time. Like the guest didn’t even have to sit through that. Maybe they have the guests say, okay, tell us who you are. And then they have a mark that they hit of like, okay, here’s where the questions actually start. And then when they go edit the show together, that’s actually where you show up, like, you’re already warm, and you’re on the topic, and they’ve introduced you. So yeah, having an understanding of what you’re expected to do before you get there is huge, you know, like, am I going to do I need a 32nd? intro for myself? Do I need to talk for two minutes to establish myself? Or do I, you know, kick out with a huge story to blow things out. And the other one, you said, always ask for the topics and questions in advance, you know, because even if they can only just give you like four topics, I always have a list of four or five related stories, you know, for those topics when I sit down as a guest, because that way when they start talking, you can say, oh, yeah, that reminds me of the time. And you know, you’re always using stories to illustrate the points because it has to entertain, right, we, if you’re just educating or reading out of your textbook, it doesn’t stick, right. I mean, you could get a Harvard or an MIT education with all of the YouTube videos of all this stuff out there. But nobody does that. Nobody sits through that stuff. You have to have a human hook. Otherwise, people just don’t pay attention and they get lost.
Katie Robbert 19:11
Well, and that’s, you know, that’s one of the things that as a guest, you know, one of the things we want to cover is dealing with a bad podcast host. And so, you know, I personally have never done like media training or anything like that. I know a lot of people who go on book tours, have done media training. So basically media training for those who don’t know, is your it’s basically a boot camp for being interviewed. That all sort of like it’ll give you the skill set the tools to you know, gracefully move away from topics you don’t want to cover, how to answer things, you know, simply how to tell better stories. And so sometimes I’ll be listening to an interview or a podcast and I’ll think oh, that person could definitely couldn’t use some sort of a boot camp. But as a guest, you know you even with all of the preparation in the world, if you get asked a curveball question, so for example, and John, this is something we talked about a few years ago, questions not to ask female guests on your podcasts. I’ve lost track. And thankfully, it doesn’t happen as much anymore. Because I think I’ve pretty much put my foot down that I will not do interviews that consist of asking me about any sort of, you know, bad experiences of being a woman in tech, like, I won’t do those interviews, I won’t answer those questions, because that’s not the story. That’s important for me to be telling at this time. And so if you’re a guest, and you’re in an interview, and they start asking those questions, I think one of the things that we don’t realize is, it’s okay to say no, and to stop the interview and say, This isn’t working, this is probably not the best use of my time and your time, because these are not questions that I think my audience wants to be hearing me answer, you know, whatever the situation is, but it’s, you can try to redirect, again, a host. And I’ve had to do that a few times as they start to get off track into things that either I’m not an expert in, which has definitely happened a few times, there’s an assumption that I’m Chris Penn, and I’m not. Number one, I’m much, much taller than him. But you need to have the ability to sort of recognize this is going off topic, and you know what, it’s okay, as the guest, you’re still in control of the story. Like, I may be sitting as a guest in marketing over coffee, and marketing over coffee as John wall’s podcast, but it’s still my story that’s being told. And so I need to speak up if it’s not going in the right direction.
John Wall 21:51
Yeah. And it’s like running Judo with that kind of stuff, you know, because if the questions start veering off, you know, you can just keep steering it back and the host, if the host doesn’t get the message after the third or fourth steer, well, that’s fine. Because they’re going to have to edit that up somehow and make it work. And it’s going to be hell. So if they’re smart, they will steal out of that. And then another big thing with that is to do your homework ahead of times, yeah, is somebody worthy of your platform? You know, I mean, it kind of gets played as everybody’s like, Oh, everybody has their show. And, you know, please consider me as a guest, but go in saying no, like, I have this important story to share. And, you know, you might not be worth my time. I mean, yeah, I’m not Tony Robbins. But I do only have, you know, I can do 10 hours worth of podcasts a week. And if your show isn’t in the top 1 million, you know, you tell me why I should spend my time with you. Like, why should I answer your stupid questions. And so, you know, when I get a show request that comes in, I always check H refs to see how many links the show has got, is the website been up for five years, or did it just turn on last quarter, and they’re getting two visits a month, look at the Apple reviews, see what they’re doing over on Spotify, you know, get a feel for the show and check their whole social presence. And the discussions there and you know, is this person going to talk about you across all channels and get you some traffic and is the thing going to get heard, because, and you know, you might want to do I know, I do the same thing of I kind of like have the 10, I want to hit and I’ll let one or two fall in there of people that I think you know, they have no audience or fans, but they’re just going to be thrilled out of their mind to have you on and make a good show, and you never know to maybe one of those little hit. Or maybe you’re just getting to spend some time with somebody who you might, you know, be able to help or they might be able to help you in the future with something else. So it’s always fun to kind of make some time for those. But definitely make sure you’re prior prioritizing the ones that are going to, you know, get you in front of more people and is an audience that’s proven to want to hear the kinds of things that you talk about, and that you know, it’s going to resonate, it’s not going to be like, you’re just the person filling the seat this week.
Katie Robbert 23:58
I mean, you can speak to this, every time I get an inbound request, I immediately send it to you and say, Is this legit? You know, because I, you know, I personally haven’t been in this industry, as long as I’ve now, you know, been in the industry for a while but not still, I don’t know, people the same way that you and Chris and others who have been doing it in the industry longer than I have no people. And so I always, you know, check with my trusted network. First of all, do you know this show? Do you know this host? And do I have anything that I need to be concerned with, you know, for this kind of person. So there’s definitely been a couple of shows a few years back that it’s not that I regret doing them but I wish I had done more homework on the host themselves because the experience being a guest wasn’t wasn’t that pleasant. It wasn’t and they weren’t shows that I was particularly proud of. And that’s just sort of my inexperience of Being a podcast guest or some sort of interview guest of, you know, it’s okay to say, I don’t think this is working. But also to your point, John, like, do your homework be prepared? You know, if you, you know, go online, and you see that, you know, John Wall, you know, isn’t the basketball player and you were really hoping to be on the basketball players podcast, but instead you have John Wall of marketing over coffee, you need to decide, does that fit my purpose? And that goes back to your original point, John of the five P’s, why am I doing this in the first place? Is it because I’m just excited that anybody’s willing to talk to me? Or do I really have a story that I need to be telling to a specific audience?
John Wall 25:41
Yeah, and you know, we can hit some of the other ones here as far as platform and performance you know? So you’ve done this guest thing now like where do you want to? Is it working for you? What’s it what is it getting done some tips on that that we always have one is dedicated URL you know, if you have your book is time to win, but you have maybe time to win with a to number two, like ti me to Wi n.com If you have a dedicated URL, you can actually see Hey, Did we get any traffic over here for these kinds of things? giveaways are another one any podcast you’re on if you’ve got something you can give away, just say hey, hit me up on social media or email me here i i recommend don’t giving your email on a podcast you’re better off giving like a socials or LinkedIn so that you can get them but yeah, giveaway signed copy of the books or comm get a free analysis of your site or whatever you for us for Trust Insights, there’s always we’ve got another report going you can get Chris’s latest, woefully incomplete prompt. report I book killing it right now. So check that over Trust Insights. giveaways are perfect too, because you’ll get the feedback. One interesting thing though, I’ve kicked this around a lot with other podcast networks, is it’s not like ads in that when you are a guest on a show. First, you’re gonna have to wait till the show drops, some shows records. That’s it maybe months before it even hits the airwaves. And then the fact that a lot of episodes, it’ll take 90 days to like, get up to speed and get the full amount of clicks that and downloads and lessons that they normally get, you know, the whole crowd doesn’t just show up in the first hour, it’s downloaded. So yeah, with a digital ad, you know, in three days, you know, you’re done, and you’re not gonna get another nickel out of it. I talked to vendors all the time that it’s, you know, three years in, we have H refs just gotta lead last week, they haven’t sponsored marketing over coffee since like, 2020. You know, and but it’s, these episodes are out there, people want to hear from Simon Sinek, or Seth Godin, or whoever or Debbie Millman. And, you know, there’s a quote in there to go to the website, download a thing and go, that’s right marketing over coffee.com, get your coffee, hot, fresh delivered, top 20 episodes and bios, sign up for the text line, follow us on LinkedIn.
Katie Robbert 27:59
But that’s a really good point. Because you’re now we’re into the how do I measure my performance as a guest, and you have to be prepared to give people some kind of a call to action in order for them to do something that’s measurable. And so you know, you can you can look at the podcast episode as a whole and say, how many people listen, but that might be completely out of your control. Because, you know, the networks that this podcast was published on may not be the network’s where your particular audiences and so you know, you need to be sharing the episodes that you’re proud of, to your point, John, you know, giveaways really easy to remember URLs, like, you know, if you shortened it to mse.com, people can remember that marketing over coffee.com. Also super easy to remember. You know, and push people so that you can see, okay, I did this thing and it brought people to my, to my download page, my website to whatever it is. So I recently, you know, to toot my own horn a little bit, I recently did a podcast as a guest with my good friend Bruxelles. I did her the marketing agency show, which she has through Social Media Examiner. And because of that episode, I got an invitation to speak at an event. And I got a bunch of new followers on LinkedIn, who reached out to me specifically with a message of I heard you on Brookes podcast, and I’m really interested in learning more about you and your company. And so for me, mission accomplished, you know, I got some very tangible, measurable things out of that I got better awareness. And I get to continue the conversation on stage at Social Media Marketing World in 2024, which, you know, is kind of cool,
John Wall 29:48
ya know, and that’s something that we see all the time we joke about the buying a private jet podcast, like if it only has four listeners and one buys a jet. That’s the most successful podcast of all time with your For downloads, you know, it doesn’t matter. You don’t need to be Joe Rogan, you just need to get some people over the line. One thing to help out with success with those programs to as you’re doing those is make sure that your marketing and sales teams are fully aware that they have those programs. In fact, a great thing to do is let them use that as a giveaway. You know, if you’ve got to if there’s a show that’s covering the topic that you are involved with, have the sales and marketing people say, hey, you know, you want to learn more about what this is go listen to this podcast over here. 30 minutes? Because yeah, there’s a lot of sponsors we have where, yeah, the sales and marketing teams are just like, yeah, we get leads from that, you know, we like expect a leader to so sponsors may not even care about downloads or any of that stuff. They’re just like, yeah, we’re getting our two or three deals a quarter, like, That’s awesome, that’s well worth the money we’re paying, we’re gonna do that. So yeah, it’s, it’s funny now, and another, the really weird one, you’ll get the devil’s deal where, you know, you get these podcasts where you don’t like the host, or you don’t like the audience, but you know, it’s a good fit for what you’re doing. And so you have to wait in there and figure out like, Okay, how are we going to do this with a guest? Who’s going to be on a host? Who’s going to be on me? Or, you know, who knows where it’s gonna go? Or, you know, they have a reputation for asking, you know, questions that are way off base, you just have to kind of get your best padding on and, you know, go show you show your judo, see if you can throw and redirect and, you know, still get your message out there. Because, yeah, sometimes it’s, it’s worth taking the hits.
Katie Robbert 31:26
Well, and I think that’s where to your point about preparation is key. And so, you know, making sure that you know, here’s the exact story that I want to be telling on this show, and I’m not going to deviate from it, you know, putting up those guardrails, saying to the host ahead of time, this is the story I’m going to be telling, I will not answer other questions, or you can try but it’s, it’s not gonna go anywhere. You know, you just need to stand your ground and say, This is the story I’m going to be telling period, John, and then you can say at the end, great, if you enjoyed that, you can learn more at Trust Insights, de.ai/prop sheet, which is really easy to remember. And so for people listening to this episode, or watching this live stream, our call to action today would be go to our website and download our free prompt sheet, which tells you how to assemble really strong prompts for generative AI, you know, and so we would be able to measure the referral traffic coming into that particular page, see, where are people coming from? Where are they coming from, you know, this live stream? Where are they coming from something else, or replays or, you know, we could measure the effectiveness in that way. But to your point about just sometimes you have to suck it up, it’s really hard, because to your point, they may be the wrong host, but they’re the right audience. And so you have to decide, is it worth it? Is it worth me possibly doing any kind of damage to my brand or my reputation to take this risk? And that’s, you know, that’s a question only you and your team can answer.
John Wall 32:59
Yeah, exactly. And it’s, this is kind of more advanced level stuff. But we see this like, especially with panels at trade shows, you know, ultimately, you kind of get to a point where, like, you might be a lot better off picking a fight than trying to explain something to, you know, your co your host there. Because, you know, a fight will get you heat and action, and especially if you’re on the right, you know, because there are a lot of people who are fine with like, I’m going to take the I want to create a fight under any circumstance, because I know it generates heat. And so they’re making outrageous claims and say ridiculous and stupid stuff. And if you’re the one that drops the banhammer and you know, calls them out as inappropriate or completely out of right field and wrong, that actually can do you. Well, you’d mentioned another thing too, I wanted to loop back on was humor too, is another thing. The an easy key, if you’re not comfortable with humor, or you’re not sure, which is really unless you’ve road tested it, you’re not sure whether you’re not sure or not. You have to figure out if something works. But an easy hack is to always have the jokes as part of and involving the content itself. So if you are talking about a survey, and you’re like, oh, yeah, one of the guys fell down the stairs, it you know, it’s not a joke that’s unrelated to the content. So if it’s a bad joke, people will just blow right through it, they’ll just ignore it. And maybe not even think it’s a joke. Whereas if you tried to just like grab some random joke off the web and plug it into your thing, like that’s where you get the really awkward weird moments that you can’t recover from you look horrible. So if you want to experiment with humor, keep it in line with the content and then you really it’s pretty much foolproof and if the jokes crash and burn.
Katie Robbert 34:39
Yeah, no, and I think that that’s solid because I’ve definitely listen to some episodes I’ve probably done it myself to where where, you know, you feel the need to keep the story going. And suddenly you just make up a joke or like a funny anecdote on the spot and just falls flat to crickets. And it’s like that is the worst feeling You know, I think the big thing is just to be genuine and be yourself. And, you know, don’t try to concoct a persona. And, you know, these, you know, really detailed stories that never happened, because they sound more interesting than what really happened. You know, to your point about the, you know, the airplane, the what is it the jet engine, or the private jet, the private the private jet podcast, you know, there’s going to be someone out there who resonates. And it might be, it might be the right person who doesn’t who your story resonates with back to measurement. You know, the thing that occurs to me too, is that if you’re using social listening tools, then you can start to see if the conversation that you’re having is having any sort of impact on the different social platforms where your episode is being shared. If there’s a transcript included, Chris, actually, last week on our live stream, which you can get old episodes, older episodes at trust insights.ai/youtube. We talked about using generative AI to repurpose content. And one of the things that we talked through was repurposing your episodes as a guest on other people’s shows, to pull the transcript to pull the video to repurpose it. And so those are other ways that you can make the most of being a guest, you can measure the success of the interview by your ability to repurpose the content in a meaningful way. So if it was like just a crap interview, and you’re like, I would never want to repurpose this, then, you know, it’s a crap interview. But if it’s something like, you know, the talk that I had with Brooke a few weeks ago, I’m gonna get a lot of mileage out of that, which to me is the mark of a really, you know, Brooke did her homework, we had a prep meeting. But also, you know, I, as the guests came prepared, because I knew what she was going to ask. And I wanted to make sure I was making really impactful statements in a very short amount of time, which is not easy to do, and they didn’t all work.
John Wall 37:00
Yeah, right. Well, and that’s another part of the dance that when the host is putting the show together, and you as the guest is that you could have it fully scripted. And there’s nothing wrong with that, too. Like, you would know that every minute, we’re here, we’re going to hit points, and we’re going to be on the mark. Or you can start to let the conversation be more organic. But yeah, you totally have a risk with that of like, you could have three minutes, that’s just garbage that you’re going to throw in the trash can. And if this is somebody important that you’ve only got 25 minutes with you, this in three minutes is going to kill you. So, you know, that’s like when people are making TV shows, there’s not a minute that’s not planned, because they’re they’re spending money and the meters running. Now in podcasting, you can run long and it’s nobody cares. There’s barely an extra nickel spent. But yeah, you kind of have to make that trade off of like, am I gonna do I think I can find some weird gem that nobody’s ever talked to this person about that’s educational, and entertaining and funny, or are we just going to hear some weird story about their pet iguana that you know, is not going to make the final show, you could have to do that on the fly and let it rip.
Katie Robbert 38:06
I would say as a guest, it’s never a bad idea to have some of those pet iguana stories prepared. Because I would say a lot of times, you know, to your point, you sort of have the three acts of marketing over coffee. And aside from the work that you’re doing the story you’re telling hosts, a lot of times want to dig into who you are as a person. And so be prepared to answer like, you know, what’s a fun fact about you? Or, you know, what’s a, you know, anecdote from childhood? Or, you know, what was the first pet you ever had, like, be prepared with some of those, like, have them in your back pocket, even if you tell them over and over again, on every single podcast, that’s okay. Because you’re going to be hitting a different audience every single time. And so it’s okay to tell the pet iguana that you used to put a harness on a walk down the street, and people would line up on their sidewalks and, you know, have their, you know, flies ready to feed the iguana because it was such a cool part of the day. And then the ice cream truck ran down the street, and almost hit the iguana. And then oh, my gosh, you realize you probably shouldn’t be walking into Gwon in the street in the first place. Have that story ready, because it’s going to be a really interesting contrast to the work that you’re doing. But make sure you know what that story is. Don’t make it up on the spot. Like I just did a really good job. And then it’s a true story.
John Wall 39:22
It’s yeah, having an easy go. Twos are, you know, the last couple books you read, or the last couple movies, you watched some kind of culture thing that you’ve done. But yeah, it is funny. And that is one great thing with marketing over coffee stuff. We’ve seen this, you know, you have somebody speaking for 20 minutes about some marketing analytics thing. And then you’re like, What are your hobbies and they come up with something that you totally didn’t expect that a right field that’s, you know, fun or funny or interesting or you never thought this person would be into that kind of stuff. And that can make for you know, entertaining interview makes it for something fun to listen to.
Katie Robbert 39:55
Or you could do what Kerry O’Shea Gorgone And I did and turn it into a whole separate podcast. Have fun hobbies that people have outside of work because what we realized was that people, you know, that you were interviewing on things like marketing over coffee would also then like slip in like, Oh, and by the way, like I’ve been to space, and you’re like, well, that’s a conversation we don’t have time to have. But I definitely want to dig into. You know, but so as a guest, you know, you’re an interesting person, there’s a reason why people want to talk to you. So just be confident in that. And then you can measure it by, you know, if you give them a call to action, you know, John, to your point, have a giveaway, drive them back to your website. Those are some of the best ways to measure and then other ways to measure is, are you then invited onto other podcasts or interviews because of the show that you did? Because the content was that good?
John Wall 40:51
Always it’s yeah, I’ve got a copy of Seth Godin, his new book. Mention it on social, you can have it. We’ll just treat for anybody that’s muscled through it today.
Katie Robbert 41:05
All right, John, any final thoughts for people who are either new to being a guest or have been a guest for a long time and maybe just need a refresher?
John Wall 41:13
Ya know, just get out and do it right and have your cheat sheet of the points. At the end of every interview? You should be able to look at your list and say, okay, yeah, I hit those three key points. You know, maybe it completely went off the rails and it’s going to be a disaster, but at least we did what we set out to do.
Katie Robbert 41:28
I think that solid know your story, know what you want to tell. All right, John, until next time,
John Wall 41:34
here we go. We’re gonna train the exit. Let’s pull the RIP.
Christopher Penn 41:38
Thanks for watching today. Be sure to subscribe to our show wherever you’re watching it. For more resources. And to learn more, check out the Trust Insights podcast at trust insights.ai/t AI podcast, and a weekly email newsletter at trust insights.ai/newsletter Got questions about what you saw on today’s episode. Join our free analytics for markers slack group at trust insights.ai/analytics for marketers, see you next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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