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So What? How to audit your marketing tactics with the 5Ps

So What? Marketing Analytics and Insights Live

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In this week’s episode of So What? we focus on how to audit your marketing tactics with the 5Ps. We walk through the basics of the 5P framework, how to audit your marketing tactics for optimization and how to act on your audit. Catch the replay here:

So What? It’s our birthday - 5 years of Trust Insights


In this episode you’ll learn: 

  • the basics of the 5P framework
  • how to audit your marketing tactics for optimization
  • how to act on your audit

Upcoming Episodes:

  • TBD

Have a question or topic you’d like to see us cover? Reach out here:

AI-Generated Transcript:

Katie Robbert 0:18
Well, hey everyone, Happy Thursday. Welcome to somewhat the marketing analytics and insights live show I am Katie. I am joined by John off, I guess it’s his turn to hump the unicorns. But I have a feeling he’s not going to be nearly as gentle as you were I would be if we call it one, John.

John Wall 0:36
Yeah, Christopher out in the wild is nothing I want to have anything to do with the premise of a really bad movie where a lot of people get destroyed quickly. So stay click because vacation.

Katie Robbert 0:48
Exactly. This week, John and I are talking about how to audit your marketing tactics with the five Ps. You know, we were talking about this because things are changing so quickly, with artificial intelligence and other tech that it’s hard to know what’s still working for you. And it’s hard to know where to start to even assess what’s working for you. So we wanted to bring back the five p framework. The five P’s if you’re not aware, our purpose, people process platform and performance, because marketers we love alliteration, so why not just go for it. And so we wanted to sort of talk through using this framework to audit your existing marketing tactics. So John, where would you like to start?

John Wall 1:34
Yeah, well, I think the big thing is, you know, you’ve used this process, and this is actually stuff that you had done prior to Trust Insights. So I would like to dive in a little bit more to kind of find out, you know, where was this developed? And, you know, how did it provide value to you, even before you’re digging into marketing campaigns? Like, what’s the history behind it? When did you actually start with this approach to getting planning and getting things in order?

Katie Robbert 1:59
Oh, well, I’ve always, in my entire career, I’ve always been in some kind of management position, whether it’s project manager or management of people. And a lot of that means staying organized with the information. And I mean, you ask anyone, like how they do requirements gathering, they’re gonna give you a different answer. There’s no, like, we tried to standardize it when I worked a few jobs back of like, here’s the business requirements template, but the template itself was really long and unwieldy. And nobody would ever fill it out. And so we would get to the software development team meetings, the planning meetings, and it would just be a mess. And so I didn’t know then what I know now, but I knew there had to be a more and more clear cut way to talk through what is it that we’re after, because we were even asked to put together many business cases, anytime we needed to change requirements or introduce something new to the product. And again, it was a very long winded long, you know, obnoxious template that nobody wants to fill out. So I, I’ve been thinking for the past few years, but there has to be a very straightforward way to capture this information. So enter into the chat, digital transformation. digital transformation is essentially at its core, introducing new technology or updated technology into your team. And so it’s change management, but digital transformation is people process technology. And I was like, well, that’s cool. But when you look at these digital transformation projects, a lot of what skipped over it are the people. And if I go back to those prior examples, where things went wrong, were with the people, people had a lack of expectations, a lack of understanding a lack of what does this mean for me? So what I wanted to expand upon that idea of change management, through digital transformation, but not call it digital transformation, because not all of these changes are digital. And really book ended with what is the purpose? What what is the question we’re trying to answer? What is the problem we’re trying to solve? And then performance, because that was the other place that I saw there was a deficit in this pre existing framework was that there was no real good measurement of how do I know I did the thing, especially when you have to put people as the very first thing you’re focusing on. And so that, and the work that we did at Trust Insights, I started to really put together this framework of, okay, if we expand these three things, these people process and technology, change technology to another P platform, and then bookend it with measurable things. I might have something. So that’s where the five P’s came from, in a in a nutshell.

John Wall 4:50
Yeah, it’s just funny. It really it’s interesting to see how this comes around. Because, you know, from that software development side, you’ve got the fact that requirements management tends to be just blown. And too busy to work with, you know, everybody has been through these cycles where they’ve sat down, and they’ve done this 80 page document about what they’re going to build. And then like a bunch of teams don’t even ever look at it. Again, it sits in a binder, you know, most of the time, maybe hopefully, they’ve got a checklist to work with. And so that’s a key point with what you’ve put together is that by having just five points, you can do it on a page, you can have everything right there and be ready to go. But then the irony for me is that now you’re doing it on marketing, where they don’t do any requirements management at all, like, you know, it’s completely like, Let’s wake up today, today and make some stuff up and put some content out and see where it goes. So, yeah, and are there other things? Because I do want to touch on that some more? Is it because you’ve done a lot on the software development side? Are there other differences from software development or tricks that you’ve pulled in from that development cycle that can help over on the marketing side?

Katie Robbert 5:53
Oh, absolutely. And this is something that I talk about almost do it a noxious standpoint is so coupled with the five P’s are user stories, user stories, I borrowed from Agile methodology, it’s meant to help more easily describe the requirements. So if you say, we need to add a blue button, then the scrum master would push back and say, Well, what is the user source, you would have to say, as someone who can’t see any other color than blue, I want to include a blue button so that I can find the checkout, you know, and so you’d have to give your ask context. And so what I like about the pairing of a user story with the five P’s is that a user story gives really good definition to the purpose, it gives you that structure of what is the problem we’re trying to solve. And from there, you can dissect the user story into the other piece, the people the process, the platform, so as a persona, the persona is person want to is your process and platform, it’s what you’re doing. And the so that is your purpose and your performance, it’s what are we intending to do, so that you know then when you go back to beginning what you’re measuring, and so that’s another piece that I borrowed, because it it’s really helpful in communicating with someone, you know, like Chris, whose mind moves a mile a minute, and they’re like, I want to do this, I want to do this, I want to do this. And if you get them to kind of slow down a little bit, and justify the thing that they want to do with the user story, they can start to piece together, like, here’s the value of this thing. So, you know, last winter, I think he developed some sort of, you know, machine learning script that would like compile playlists for people, which is fine, there’s probably a use case for that. But for our company, I asked him to put together a user story. And it slowed him down enough to think through, it’s not the right thing for our audience, because he couldn’t come up with a so that compelling enough for him to be able to spend the time to develop it for our services.

John Wall 8:14
Yeah, there’s so that is really what closes the gap. And again, it’s funny how there’s two different approaches to that. But on that software development side, there’s so many situations where people like, Okay, we have the technology where we could do this and this. And as soon as there’s stuff there, people want to plug it in and turn it on. But unless you have something that finally closes it and drives it back towards value, it’s just spinning your wheels, you know, you’re you’re not going to get anything is going to make it all the way to the budget line for that, you know that that becomes a challenge with that. And it is interesting, too. So you mentioned, you know, working with Chris working with the data scientists, that’s a big part of this, too, that we’ve seen is this is a great tool to be able to bridge the difference between you know, kind of highly creative marketing people that really don’t care about analytics at all, versus, you know, your data analysts that are interested in the numbers, but have, you know, probably have difficulty connecting that to the things that the crazy artists want, you know, and how to make that work. So what kind of stuff have you been doing to get that all back together? And you know, is 5g At the core of that too?

Katie Robbert 9:20
It is I think 5g is always at the core, because you know, so you have again, Persona is people want to is the process and platform. And so that is the purpose and performance. And so when I talk about the five P’s, and I include the user stories, I What I’ve found what I like about this particular framework is that can apply to a lot of different things. And so I’ve used it to do goal setting. I’ve used it to help justify different pieces of our marketing strategy. Basically using it like a mini business case. You know if Chris comes to You and me and he says, You know what I want to create an automated widget that’s going to spit out a report with, you know, basic analysis. Okay? In theory, that sounds great. But if you run through the five P’s, then you can start to see where the gaps are. And a lot of times, you know, first for a company, as small as us there, it’s pretty quick to like, figure out what those are. And so the people, it’s like, well, who’s the audience for it? Who’s gonna want this thing? The process? Is that a repeatable processes? It’s something that John, you were I could pick up if Chris is on vacation, like he is now? Is it a process that is unwieldy and takes 59 steps to do, and therefore, it’s not something that’s scalable, or the platform’s accessible to people other than just Chris. And so it helps us piece together those requirements without having to go through, you know, meeting after meeting after meeting of Okay, so we’re on page two of 88 of the requirements gathering. So hopefully, the goal at the end of this meeting is to get down to page 1.5. Nobody wants to sit through any of that. And so it’s a really good, quick, at a glance, gut check. I’m actually working on building a talk using the five P’s and user stories for bridging the gaps of communication with technical and non technical resources, and sort of using the same thing. And so the, what is the question you need to have answered, but also being able to set the expectation of why? Because I don’t know about you, John, but when someone asks you a question that you don’t fully understand, your inclination might be like, Why do you need to know this? Or who wants to know? Or who’s asking? You know, I’m guessing that’s probably a conversation you have a lot with your kids, like, why do you need to know that? You know, and they’re not using the, you know, user stories to articulate, like, what the expectations are?

John Wall 11:51
Right? Yeah. And so often, because it frames context, you know, like, that’s the biggest thing because you understanding where somebody’s coming from gives you a lot better idea of where you need to lead them and where they go. I did want to loop over to to competitive analysis, who so we’ve talked about the general terms and kind of laid it out. But a big part of this is looking at your competitive state and how you’re doing against other companies in your vertical. So what was the deal with that? In fact, this is something you guys had been working on long before Trust Insights even right, like, what was the story with this?

Katie Robbert 12:23
Yeah, so our competitive analysis, and I can pull up, let’s see, let me present, I should, you know, you would think I would be a little more prepared. But here we are. So this competitive analysis, this looks different from the version that Chris and I worked on, when we were at the agency prior, but the methodology is roughly the same. And so the purpose of this is to understand what your digital footprint looks like, compared to your competitors in the major categories of search, social, earned, owned, and paid. And so we have a lot of data points that go into each of these categories, what you’re seeing is a summarization of each category of all the data points to give a percentage to say, overall, you are 34% of the 100%. Like, if there’s 100% of a digital footprint, you have 34% of that, whereas your competitors only have 11%, or 13%. And then if you want to dig into the individual categories, you know, you can see that our paid for example gets 0% of the share. Whereas our we have a competitor in this example that has 98% of the share. And so if we wanted to, you know, overtake that category, then the recommendation would be like, we have to spend a heck of a lot more money, anything more than zero, which is what we’re spending on paid advertising right now. And so the purpose of this is to give you a high level overview, basically if your SWOT analysis, your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats in a digital, understandable way to look at a glance to go Okay, where am I? Where are things working? Where am I ahead? And where are their opportunities? And where is somebody like creeping up behind me?

John Wall 14:14
Yeah, cuz it you know, there’s a lot of value to that, because you’ve got the whole digital footprint and then you’ve got it broken down by the channel, so you can see. So like, for this example here. Yeah, not doing any paid. That’s common because we’re with a lot of things going the content marketing route, and you know, so we’re hooked, we should be dominating on search and earned, whereas, you know, things like social are owned, that’s where marketing budgets just have to get thrown to make it happen. So what do you usually prescribe for something like that? So if we’ve seen somewhere where, okay, you’re you’re being beaten by two or three other competitors in the space like what kind of action do you want to take to try and improve your standing?

Katie Robbert 14:55
So you would look at Where’s which channel specifically? My You have the most opportunity. So let’s say, you know, for example, let’s say we weren’t the first in search, if we were lower, but we were like 20%. And the next one is 24%, we could say, well, you have a smaller gap to make up, you’re already creating content, you’re already working on your SEO, what else can we do? Or what are you currently doing? What’s your opportunity to then, you know, increase search. And so it comes down to what the priorities are for the individual company. So we don’t have a really good ad budget. So for us, we might be okay with saying that paid category is we’re always going to come in last place, maybe that’s fine, because the other categories are stronger. You know, we might say, You know what, this year, we really want to get a PR program in place to drive more awareness. So we’re going to look at that own number and say, Where are there opportunities for us to put some of those pieces in place. So that’s what I thought, it’s, it’s not enough to just hand this report over and say, This is what you should do it, there needs to be a conversation. And that’s where you start to get into those five P’s of what is it that you want to do with your company with your marketing tactics. And so when I was looking at this port, this report in particular, and running it through the five Ps, which I did in this week’s newsletter, which you can get at Trust Insights, our AI slash newsletter, you can read all of the issues on our website, and subscribe to future issues. I just very quickly ran this report through the five P process through the five p framework, and realized that the two deficits, the two gaps are process and the platforms. And so in creating the report, the process is manual. So that might be an opportunity for automation. But before we even get to that, I would first audit all of the platforms, which is what I started doing. And I realized that there are some pieces, especially in search and social, that needs to be updated. And so by using the five P’s at a broad stroke, I can very quickly put together the requirements and say, What is this thing supposed to do? Who was it for? How was it built? And how do we know that it’s working. And I could see that two of the five fees were the ones that needed the most work.

John Wall 17:15
Yeah, that’s the stuff is constantly moving and evolving, which makes it a challenge to keep it you know, in order. And I think that’s, I don’t know, and then maybe have some other opinions on this, I’d love to hear too, is that we just see this over and over again, where so many marketing departments just kind of crank out a single campaign, like it’s everything they can do to just get one out the door. But the real value is if you’re able to, you know, test, do some A B testing and multivariate or at least go back loop back and measure to get comparison for going forward. I don’t know. Are there any tricks you’ve got for that, or stuff you’ve seen that separates the folks that are more successful from everybody else?

Katie Robbert 17:52
I, you know, I’m gonna sound like a broken record on this episode. But it again, it goes back to those five P’s. And so if you do that, and set the intention and the expectation of the campaign, then you can say, alright, so this campaign, what is the purpose of it? The purpose is to drive awareness. Who are the people? Well, we want to drive awareness to people who have never heard of us, you know, John’s going to be involved, Katie is going to be involved. What is the process? Well, this is where things are taking too long. Because we’re manually putting these campaigns together in spreadsheets, and then we’re manually bidding and doing all of that, you know, we know what the platforms are, let’s say it’s Google ads. And then performance, how do we know that it worked? Well, we know that it worked, because we’ve driven X number of, you know, new users through our website. If you have those basics down, if you have that basic checklist, then you can, that’s what allows you to then pivot quickly, to say, Okay, we know the process is taking too long, how can we automate that, then we can spend out, you know, maybe we can introduce something like a ChatGPT, to come up with more iterations of the report of the ads more, you know, versions that maybe we can test more quickly. And then we can start to see which one is driving the best performance. And so by always going back to that foundation, you know, what it is that you’re intending to do, and you’re not just pushing buttons and spending money and saying, I don’t know if it worked.

John Wall 19:18
Yeah, and then how about as far as the cycle like, what do you like to see as far as how often should this report be run? And, you know, what kind of expectations do you have for being able to make a difference in the numbers?

Katie Robbert 19:30
For a competitive analysis report? I would say more than it depends on how aggressive you’re being with the changes that you’re making in your marketing. You know, and so again, if we’re looking at paid for example, if you’re standing, if you get this report today, and you stand up ads tomorrow and you plan to really put a lot of effort into them, then I would say you know, within a month you should be able to see if you’re having an impact at all, on that particular channel, but more Most of us don’t have the luxury of moving that quickly. So probably once a quarter, if you’re just more passively making changes, but if you are hyper focused on, no, we absolutely have to own the paid channel, we, that’s the one that we are going to make a difference in, we’re going to put all of our resources behind it, then you should be able to see a difference pretty quickly, you can run this report monthly. But if you’re not making changes to your marketing, then you’re not going to see much difference. You may see your competitors changing. And you may see your numbers changing a little bit, but not enough to really make new decisions until you actually take action and pivot your strategies.

John Wall 20:37
Yeah, right and relative terms, but yeah, that’s a great point, I didn’t realize it because it’s like with paid spend, that’s you turn on the faucet, like that just happens instantly. Whereas earned media is you know, you’ve gotten months and months lag time on that to make that work. But it is interesting to to be able to see what your competition is doing and how they’re moved. Because yeah, your scores could change because they pick up more ground or become more dominant? And is there anything else? What kind of value the DSC are in specific competitors? Like, if you see somebody his score has gone way up D? Is it even worthwhile to go dig into that? Or what would you do with that?

Katie Robbert 21:11
You know, with the tools that we use, you can start to dig in a little bit on why their scores changes, maybe they’ve started creating additional content in a vertical that you aren’t in, but it’s driving more traffic to their website. So you might be able to look that and go, Hmm, we also serve that vertical, but we’re not creating content. So maybe that’s something we should consider. And then you can start to do your SEO research, you can start to look at your keywords, you can start to look at the opportunities. But then you can also start to look at your own website and see where can I just, you know, make some quick changes and re optimize some existing content to get those wins and boost the search traffic with social. A lot of it is around engagement and followers. And so, you know, if you have a lot of followers, but no engagement, then your score isn’t going to really turn out. So you have to that’s a two pronged approach, you have to be thoughtful of like, well, who are we trying to get to follow us because the sheer number of followers is irrelevant if nobody’s engaging with the content that you’re sharing. And so that’s, that’s when you start to see these channels working together. So you have to create good content, to then put on your website to boost the search, you have to have good content to then share on social to have people following you to then engage with, you have to have really good content to then share that anybody would even care about to cover in a story. And then you’d have to have good content to then put money behind, you know, to put budget behind for paid ads. And so that all the advice always comes back to like, what’s your point of view? What’s your thought leadership? What’s your content? What’s your story? Why would somebody come to you in the first place because just having a services page isn’t going to really move the needle on a report like this?

John Wall 22:55
Right? And again, it’s just keep circling back to the user stories, right? If you got that lined up, but that is a great point that it can go across all channels. So if you’ve got great content, you’re you’re doing you’re repurposing you’re gonna hit on all fronts, which is great. Yeah. How about for AI stuff? You know, this is always on the radar here. And you know, we wouldn’t be doing Chris a disservice if we didn’t loop AI into the discussion this week. But is there anything that you’re thinking about that will change this, the way you’re measuring this and where the results will be because of some of the tools that have shown up and that are starting to get used?

Katie Robbert 23:28
Yeah, absolutely. And so I think the search category is definitely, it’s one that we need to take a look at in terms of the metrics that we’re using to score for the search category. As of right now is looking at it. I don’t think they’re going to change today. Because you have things like backlinks and referring domains, that’s still gonna be relevant. But it’s going to come down to what the larger search engines like Google and Bing decide, are the most important for their algorithms. And so what we do know for Google is that good quality content and a strong session have backlinks is what helps like if other people are linking to your content, then the authority of that content tends to go up and up and up. So that’s still an important feature. So I don’t see these necessarily changing. I think the way that we think about it like organic keyword appearances, that’s something that might change. You know, how often your keywords are showing what your keywords are. The thing that right now, I can say with full transparency that needs to change in our report are the social channels that we’re using to put this score together. You know, we have it’s outdated in terms of what’s been new, so Tiktok isn’t on here. You Some threads isn’t on here threads is still new enough that I don’t know that we could, you know, relatively we could easily put it on here and measure it. But Tiktok is something we should probably include. And then I think it’s going to come down to having a little bit more customization with each individual client that wants to do this. Do they have a Facebook page? Is that where their clients are? If they don’t, then it’s an irrelevant metric? Do they have a YouTube channel? Well, if they don’t, but everybody else does in their competitive space, that might be a consideration for them. So there’s a lot for us to think about in terms of do these metrics? Is it global enough for everybody? Or do we need to start to customize it per client based on what the digital footprint should look like for their industry?

John Wall 25:47
Yeah, right. But that’s a we’ve already seen this, where that’s the magic of it is, as you engage with a client, you get a lot more specific questions as far as like, how are we doing this? And where do we go on what we’re gonna do? How about for the future? This? Is there anything? Excuse me else that you want to see included? On it? Damn, I’m dying here. Or where you want it to go?

Katie Robbert 26:13
That is a great question. You know, I actually hadn’t thought I hadn’t really thought about it. But as I’m looking at it, I think that there may be opportunities, I think the categories of digital will stay roughly the same. But I do think that they will get updated. I think search, I mean, search is going to change, I think we need to rethink what social looks like. Because right now, again, we’re looking at follower counts, we’re looking at engagement. But are those the right metrics? In terms of new categories? Maybe I guess it depends on how much our industry embraces artificial intelligence. So you know, maybe it’s, you know, we break down search into, you know, generative versus human. I mean, there could be some opportunities there. I don’t know, that’s a really good question. And we could get very granular with the report, and then continue to roll it back up.

John Wall 27:13
Yeah, and it’s an interesting point you make about social, I mean, I could easily argue now that social has just become another media channel, right? You You’re either earned, owned or paid, you know, they’re very brands that have enough clout that they their social presence matters, I don’t know, actually, virtually none of them, right, because it’s all the brands are not getting action, we’ve seen plenty of reports, even across to Instagram, where you’re getting like point one of your audience is saying, you know, that organics social thing is just completely a thing of the past now, and but maybe that will come back with threads and some of these other properties. But we’ve pretty much seen that they just love to throttle those down.

Katie Robbert 27:50
Well, and that could be, you know, organic, social versus paid social, or influencer marketing or some other category of marketing that we don’t have represented here. Because we have very, you know, high level buckets that are meant to include more of that data. But maybe we do need to break it out into more granular categories of, you know, the way that people really are marketing themselves that aren’t these traditional methods.

John Wall 28:18
Yeah, and that’s a great point. I mean, this is just one of a whole battery of reports that we run and things that we do, we do a ton of stuff as far as influencers. And that is a huge multiplier for a lot of these channels. Like if you have the right influencers, you can easily score on any of these categories. And we’ve done it, Chris has done a bunch of stuff with this as far as you don’t have to be buying Kardashians, like in every vertical, there’s like a layer of people, they’re not the most famous, but they do have the most reach and they get the most, you know, they’re the ones that are kind of the sneezers, as they call them, you know, they’re the ones that get everything to spread more than everybody else. And there’s huge value if you can identify and get to those people. So yeah, that’s another one in the whole report stack, we should probably completely give a plug to for analytics for marketers, if you’re a big fan of all this kind of discussion in these reports, you can join our Slack group. And we’re always there to just talk about what’s going on where we’re going with this and love to give any feedback you’ve got on that front. So feel free to join us there. I don’t know. Is there anything else that you wanted to hit on this stuff while we had the chance today?

Katie Robbert 29:21
Yeah, as as I’m thinking about it, and if we go back to the five p framework, so the purpose people process, platform and performance, you know, you’re asking me sort of the future of this report. And I can imagine putting together a five p business case for the future state that includes, you know, so obviously, like if someone just wants to buy the quick and dirty version of the report, we have that but if they want to do a future state, where we try to really dig into more of the cost centers and the financials, things that aren’t so glaringly obvious, the automation, you know, how does our company stack up against the guy down the street who has very low overhead, and everything is automated, you know, how does that look? You know, there’s other versions of this that I can see. And I would put that through the five Ps to say, what is the purpose? doing that? Well, the purpose of doing a more financial focused version is to see, you know, are we going to stay afloat? Or are we just bleeding money, compared to the guy who’s like, eating our lunch every day? And has only two people and everything else is just computers? You know, what does it look like for him to be doing all of this? Where does he stack up against us in terms of our digital footprint? So I think that there’s a lot of value in thinking through other versions of this report that aren’t just the straight, you know, search, social earned or paid. There’s other things that people want to know about. And I think that those should exist.

John Wall 30:55
That sounds good. Yeah, that’s everything I wanted to cover with this. Is there any, any other tales or stories you want to talk about as far as stuff clients have done, or you know, things you want to share?

Katie Robbert 31:05
I will say the caution with things like the user story, one of the things that one of our clients, one of our old clients, they’re not a client anymore, I used to do what I asked them to put together a set of user stories. And there was two things that was wrong with the exercise. Number one, they didn’t change the persona for different people. So basically, it was, we want to say that, and I was like, well, who’s we? They’re like, Well, me and the rest of the team, I’m like, well, technically, that’s not how it works, every individual person should have their own version of a user story. Because what I want is going to be different from what John was, who may have the same end goal, but our approach might be different, or we may need different things. And so that was a problem. And then a lot of times, I’ll see a user story stop, right after the want to so as a CEO, I want to understand our marketing budget, period. And so half of the story will be left off. And that was the problem I was seeing with a lot of digital transformation projects is because there was no purpose. And there was no performance bookending the people process technology, the so that didn’t exist, like why are we doing this? How do we know it worked? What does success look like? Let’s just add in some new piece of equipment, and then you know, hope for the best. Nobody cares what people want. So if you if you introduce user stories, then at the very least you can get a sense of what people’s expectations are. And it helps you communicate why you’re doing something. So if I say, John to you, alright, so every Tuesday, we are going to speak only in Pig Latin. That is how we have to sell. That is how we have to communicate that is what we’re doing. Your first question is probably going to be Why are you doing this? And what does this mean for me? What is it exactly that you expected me, that’s where users are. So as a CEO, I want the entire company to speak in Pig Latin, so that we can open up the Pig Latin market that we don’t currently have any reach into. And you might go, oh, okay, now, that makes a little bit more sense. So your users who might be as the business development partner, I want to bang my head against the wall so that I never have to speak Pig Latin ever again, because this is a stupid idea. And then you and I have started that conversation of like, why is this a thing? But it’s a more productive conversation. And we both set expectations of what we want to get out of it.

John Wall 33:34
Right? All those big in ways for all the fat ash K. Ready to rock. That’s gonna work.

Katie Robbert 33:43
So yeah, it’s good for expectation setting. And it’s good to get everybody to at least write down one user story from their perspective.

John Wall 33:53
That sounds good. Yeah, I think that’s a good place to wrap for today. Anything else that on the way out the door?

Katie Robbert 34:00
I need to brush up on my Pig Latin. I’m actually pretty bad. I used to read as a kid, but now I got nothing.

John Wall 34:05
No reason to hide your communication anymore. So yeah, that’s fine. That’s the way to go.

Katie Robbert 34:11
No, I think that’s it, you know, I want to, you know, I think the five P’s can be really effective if you use them. So business requirements don’t have to be daunting. business requirements don’t have to be, you know, 800 pages long. If you at least have a basic understanding of the problem that you’re trying to solve. Every action you take should tie back to that initial purpose of what are we trying to do? And if it doesn’t, then it’s a distraction.

John Wall 34:39
That sounds good. Alright, I think that’ll do it for this week. We will catch up with you next week. But thanks for watching.

Christopher Penn 34:48
Thanks for watching today. Be sure to subscribe to our show wherever you’re watching it. For more resources. And to learn more, check out the Trust Insights podcast at trust AI podcasts, and a weekly email newsletter at trust Got questions about what you saw on today’s episode? Join our free analytics for marketers slack group at trust for marketers, see you next time.

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