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So What? Change Management basics

So What? Marketing Analytics and Insights Live

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In this week’s episode of So What? we focus on change management. We walk through what change management is (and isn’t), where it typically goes wrong, and what to be mindful of when doing it. Catch the replay here:

So What? Change Management basics

In this episode you’ll learn: 

  • The basic principles of change management
  • Common mistakes with change management
  • Simple solutions for change management

Upcoming Episodes:

  • validating credible sources – 7/15/2021
  • search console – TBD


Have a question or topic you’d like to see us cover? Reach out here:

AI-Generated Transcript:

Katie Robbert 0:23
Well, hey, friends, Happy Thursday, welcome to sell what the marketing analytics and insights live show I am Katie joined by Chris and John, this week we’re taking a slightly different approach. So we usually go over how to do specific analysis, how to setup software, those kinds of things. But this week we’re actually doing so what change management basics. And so what we’re going to do is we’re gonna go through the basic principles of change management, some of the common mistakes and some simple solutions for change management. And so before we really dig into what change management is, like, the term itself has a lot of negative connotations to it. So Chris, John, when you hear the term change management, what does it make you think of?

Christopher Penn 1:09
expensive consultants? Yeah, it’s

John Wall 1:14
funny, there’s, you know, there’s kind of two levels of it for some people I’ve lived in, in the world where that’s goes along with software development, as far as figuring out in different files and figuring out where things are changing. But really, the where the meat is, is over on that, okay, you’re gonna roll out this software to 500 people, how do you do that without, you know, half the workforce quitting and all your customers being really angry about it. So it’s, it’s critical to actually effectively rolling out projects is really where it comes down to.

Katie Robbert 1:42
So the good news is that you’re both right. Now, whether or not these are the right approaches is that’s what we want to start to pick apart. So in my experience, change management has met both things. So Chris, to your point, expensive consultants, and John, to your point, talking about how to roll something out. Now, I think the term change management gets a really bad reputation, because it does sort of go along with this idea of well, we have to bring in expensive consultants who can tell us what we’re doing wrong, and then tell us how to fix it. But what often ends up happening is it stops there. And that’s Problem number one with change management is it’s not good enough to just have someone come in, point out all the things you’re doing wrong, and then leave, you need someone who’s going to stay with you and be invested, and help you work through and roll out those changes. Because the number one problem with change management is consistency. Number two is patience. Number three is proper expectation setting. And number four is a lack of measurement plan. So what I want to do with you guys today is walk through a very common scenario that a lot of marketers are facing, and actually walk through using the general change management procedure. And so you’re probably wondering, oh, what is this framework from? Well, this is a framework that I put together, based on my experience with how change management works. And this framework is essentially covering the main tenants of change management. So management, so purpose, why are we doing this people who is doing this process? How are we doing this platform? What are we using to do this? And performance? Did we do the thing. And so the scenario that I want to walk through with you guys today is one that I’ve heard a lot from our slack community. You can go to Trust slash analytics for marketers, if you want to join our free slack community and join us in these conversations. But one of the questions that we were asking recently in the community was what has changed for you? So a couple of years ago, we ran a one question survey asking marketers what their pain points were as marketers. And so what we’ve heard more recently is that there’s two big themes that have emerged, the first theme being, you know, the remote versus not remote work, and people being asked to come back to the office thinking about switching jobs because they won’t have that flexibility anymore. But then the other scenario that hits close to all of us is a reduced marketing budget. And so because of the pandemic, a lot of marketing budgets were reduced or locked down or removed altogether, because nobody really knew what was happening. And so, guys, I guess the first question I would have for you is so let’s say I come to you and say Alright, we’re going to have to reduce our marketing budget by 30%. Okay, now what what could go wrong?

Christopher Penn 4:46
Well, first thing is okay, so what do you want to cut?

John Wall 4:51
Yeah, where to cut that said, You dig into everything that you’ve you’re spending on and try and prioritize what is the first thing that needs to go you know, you really Unfortunately, you know, for people like us, we’re kind of throwing the kids off the lifeboat, you know, it’s not like there’s Oh, well, we’ll just drop these four agencies that we’ve had. We’re cutting meat, but yeah, you do what you have to do.

Katie Robbert 5:13
So John, what you’re saying is that we shouldn’t spend any extra money on life Fest, we should just throw people overboard.

John Wall 5:20
Yeah, that’s it, man. If you’ve got to hit that 30% Mark, that’s those numbers are like, okay, hit the number or, you know, you get your last paycheck. So.

Katie Robbert 5:28
So, a real So a really common answer to that question, you know, where do we go from here is, you know, what do we cut first. So a lot of times, people will first start to look at the expenses. And so we were actually just talking with a client this morning, who is paying upwards of $50,000 a year for a piece of software, that they’re not using all that much. And we showed them a free version that does roughly the same thing. And so for them, it might be a very simple switch of, Okay, let’s shut this one off, and turn this one on and start using it. But then you have to start to walk through what are the implications of that? So the purpose, why are we doing this is a fairly easy question to answer in this scenario. And so the answer is, we’re doing this because we want to be able to save money. But we also want to be able to do the analysis on our website, the way that we were doing before. So that’s number one. And then people who is doing this, this is where 100% percent of change management efforts go wrong, because we forget to factor in the people part of it. And Chris, you and I were talking on our podcast earlier this week, and you made the joke. Well, it sounds like we should just get rid of all the people and that the machines take over,

Christopher Penn 6:40
you’ll hit that 30% right away.

Katie Robbert 6:42
That is absolutely the wrong way to handle it. Absolutely. It does. So here’s the thing, you do solve the problem. But then you introduce a whole host of other issues. And so in this scenario of reduced budget, and so we’re going to move to a free tool, versus the tool that costs us $50,000. The first thing we need to understand is who’s been using the tool who has access to the tool, who relies on the data from the tool, do our customers rely on data from the tool. So John, in your scenario you were talking about? Well are our customers going to be mad at us, if we make these changes, there’s a very good possibility that if you switch software like midstream, without any sort of a plan, your customers will be very upset with you because it will change their experience, customers have signed on with you because they want to have a predictable, consistent experience with your thing. And if you change that, without any kind of communication, that can be problematic. Let’s say you decide to switch the software midstream and not have communication to your board or your C suite. Well, if they get used to seeing the data in a certain way. And suddenly the next month, you present the exact same data perhaps but in a different format. That could be a problem because people are creatures of habit and they want to know, well. What is this? I don’t even know what this is, this looks foreign to me, it’s green instead of blue. Why didn’t you tell me you were changing color on this thing? Believe it or not, that is one of the easier problems to solve. But is the one that is most often overlooked is literally those small changes? are what disrupt the entire process. So I want to ask you guys, like what are some examples that you’ve been through where people just haven’t communicated? that something’s changing, and it’s directly impacted you?

Christopher Penn 8:31
Oh, it’s not able to communicate, they lied. They outright lied. I’ve been through three mergers and acquisitions. And the first thing everyone says is, nothing’s gonna change everything. Business as usual. Everything is right. And it’s never ever, not once has it as nothing changed. Even if it’s small changes, like you said, like, okay, we’re gonna change how you do, you know, reimbursements from this system, this is a button, a lot of cases, it was big, big changes that were just outright lies saying, okay, you know, we’re not gonna change how we manage this company at all. And then two months later, okay, we’re changing how we manage this company completely. And so, in those cases, I think something that contributes to the problems with change management is, yeah, when you tell us your one thing, and you completely lie, and it’s total BS, I’m kind of hesitant to believe anything anybody says in management anymore, ever.

John Wall 9:25
Yeah, that goes right to managing expectations, you know that you have totally nailed it, and that people completely overlook that like, especially with a lot of the software stuff that I’ve worked on, everybody’s all worried about features and if it will work on the platform, and will it cause trouble, and they don’t take the extra step to say, Okay, what are the people gonna do when they first see this? I mean, even if something is trivial, we had an app where the dev team changed the icon that was on the toolbar, and you would not believe there was a firestorm of maybe, you know, only about half a percent of the users but that ended up being over 100 people who were like, I can’t find the icon on my toolbar. Because, you know, it changed from blue to green, and the graphic changed a little bit. So they weren’t completely destroyed. So yeah, you know, doing iterative work, you know, starting with a beta group, and then a test production group, and then everybody making sure you kind of figure out what happens and how to interact with people on the way. And then that, yeah, just manage the expectations. Like, if you’re doing it, right, you’re going to know what the questions are about why things have changed, instead of just throwing stuff out there. And, you know, keeping your fingers crossed, that you’re not going to get bit.

Christopher Penn 10:28
Or even if the software stays the same, and the people change, I had this experience recently, with some younger folks in a Discord server, who were asking why in Microsoft Word is the save icon, a little soda machine with little cans of soda in it, I like that. That’s a, that’s a floppy disk. Like, what’s that? Like? Okay. So the software has changed, but the people changed?

Katie Robbert 10:55
Well, and I think that I think that organizations often forget that the core of all change has to start with people, you have to have the people on board, you can build a really great, you know, bulletproof process, you can have the best UI of your platform. But if the people aren’t on board with what you’re doing, if they don’t know, Chris, your point, there’s no trust, John, to your point. There’s like disruption and Firestorm if like you, but I don’t know what’s happening. Now, Chris, in the scenario that you described, giving benefit of the doubt, let’s just say in that theoretical situation, they went into it saying nothing will change. That was the information they had at that time. So at that time, that was truth. Two months later, the information changed. The misstep that they took, was not acknowledging that the information had changed. Had they said that instead of just changing things, my assumption I could be wrong. But my assumption is that more people would have been more comfortable with the change in the process and the change in how things were managed, had it been communicated. When we started this two months ago, this is what it looks like. Now we have this information. Now, here’s how we’re going to move forward. Here’s why we have this new information. So basically being transparent and explaining to people here’s what happened, do you think that you would have felt more comfortable with the changes being made,

Christopher Penn 12:19
I only wish it had actually been that case. So in one particular acquisition, they already had a list of people who are going to fire and the departments they’re going to rearrange. And this is not the new owners, but the the existing owners, they knew months in advance, because they’d worked out the terms of the deal. And the reason why they didn’t make it public was because they knew if they made the any of the announced changes, people would leave it would change the deal, the deal terms, the valuation of the company, before the deal could go through. So they intentionally withheld this to keep the deal intact. And then when they dropped the changes on everybody, you know, a month later, after all the paperwork, assigning people to cash the checks, people were like, well, what the heck? Sure. So I would love to I would have loved if it was actually information asymmetry button, at least in the m&a scenario. It wasn’t it was. It wasn’t malicious. I don’t they didn’t go out of the way to intentionally hurt people. But they withheld vital information. And part of change management is communication. They were doing the opposite of communication.

Katie Robbert 13:18
So I guess what I’m saying is so sure that scenario happened. And that’s not something we can change, but playing out the theoretical scenario, that they weren’t purposely withholding information that they weren’t maliciously doing things that they, you know, weren’t lying to you, I guess what my question is, if it played out that they had said, Hey, we have new information, here’s what’s going to happen now. Do you feel like you would have been more comfortable with that kind of change if they had just communicated? What was going on?

Christopher Penn 13:48
I don’t think so. And I also think, you know, with all forms of change, natural change is a constant of life to say that nothing’s going to change is lying period. You, the more honest way to say is we don’t know what that we know, there’ll be changes, we don’t know what they are. And we’re committed to keeping these things that are part of the experience intact, acknowledging other things, yeah, of course, have to change. That’s life. And I think, again, to your point, part of this exercise of managing change effectively. And what John was saying is, these are the expectations, things like hey, we are not going to change, say, the Employee Benefits Program, we’re not going to change the healthcare, probably that’s not going to change, at least for the first 12 months. But you know, up for grabs the reimbursement process. We don’t know, we don’t know how we’re going to handle that. I think that level of communication would certainly make me feel more comfortable. If and when we get to the point as a company to Trust Insights of, you know, partnering or doing an acquisition with another company, I would want us to be saying like, yeah, we don’t know what’s going to change. But these are the things that we’re committed to keeping. And they’re part of the deal. They’re written into the deal.

Katie Robbert 14:58
So it’s interesting Chris, you Are, as you’re talking through these experiences, you’re further proving the point that I’ve been trying to make that people at the core of it are what’s going to make or break the chain being successful. You know, because Chris, I know you very well. And I know that, like, you’d rather just dig into the software, you know, analyze the data, but ultimately, much to your dismay, at the end of the day, you are a person who has feelings and opinions, and you want to feel like you can trust what’s going on. And that’s really again, where change management falls apart. So let’s say in that scenario, you know, they switched out the reimbursement process, and it actually was better for you. It sounds like they’ve already lost your trust. And so you don’t believe the process, you don’t trust in the process. It doesn’t matter what the outcome is, you already felt like, you know, you’ve been deceived or lied to, and you can’t, you know, they haven’t given you the information, you need to feel comfortable with what they’re doing moving forward, even if it’s going to be better for you, because you as a person are directly impacted negatively.

Christopher Penn 16:11
That’s right. And you know, when we look at what is you know, what is likely to happen, or what could happen. Without those expectations of like, here are the things that we are going to hold steady on here, things that are up for grabs. It’s challenging. We see this a lot even in with basic stuff, like with our clients, when Google changes something in Google Analytics, like they are in no obligation under no obligation to provide any kind of communication because it’s free, right. And then we hear from clients, where the thing go like it was there last week, it stopped there this week, like, yep, that’s life with Google. You’re not paying for it. So you, you have to deal with unexpected changes all the time.

Katie Robbert 16:55
And it’s not a great experience for the customers. And so there are customers who abandon the platform. Now, Google is one of those unique scenarios where it doesn’t matter if people are happy with it or not, it’s so embedded in what it is that they do, because they have such a lion’s share of the market that people really have no choice, but to use the thing. So that’s sort of a different beast altogether. But if you’re talking about, let’s say, you’re switching from Adobe analytics to Google Analytics, then that’s a change management procedure that you definitely want to have all of those pieces outlined, especially for your internal teams. Because if you’re switching platforms like that, you might think, well, I’m the only one who uses it. So therefore, it’s not a big deal, if I just start switching it out. Well, that’s not necessarily true. Depending on the size of your organization, it might be the IT team, who actually has to make the changes, so they have to factor it into their planning, it might be the sales team who actually is dependent on some of those metrics out of the system. For their KPIs, it might be the C suite who actually is responsible for recording those metrics up to the board. And that’s what determines funding firings, hirings, all of those different things. And so, really thinking through Yeah, I might be the only person who has a seat in this platform. But is that really the only person who touches this thing, and then you have to have. So we’ve talked a lot about the people, if we move on to the process, if you’re switching platforms, for example, or even if you’re switching, um, you know, reimbursement, you know, systems, whatever the thing is, there has to be some sort of transition process from one thing to the other. Or if you’re introducing something brand new, there still has to be some level of process of where does this fit in to the everyday work experience, the term process, the word process, tends to turn people off because they assume that it’s this like, long, labored, boring thing. But really, what we’re talking about is just some sort of awareness of how you get from A to B, you might get from A to B, a little bit different every single time. But you know, that you’re getting from A to B is the goal. And so let’s say Chris, you know, you usually pull your reports out of out of Adobe analytics every Friday, and then you copy the data, and then you put it into a deck, and then you send it off to the clients by end of day Friday. That’s the general process, you don’t have to get into the minutiae of how everything is done. What you would want to know is, Does Google Analytics function roughly the same way? Can you recreate the process in the new platform? But then also, is the data the same? So are you getting the same metrics? And so just having an understanding and again, sort of those expectations of this is what it looks like here? This is what it looks like here. Where are the gaps? What’s the difference in what can I expect moving forward which goes back to communication amongst the people, which again, is where things go wrong?

Christopher Penn 19:57
No question, at what point One of the things that I have a tendency to do is as I’m making a change is to also change the process too. So like when you’re migrating from one system to the next, and you know, the old process sucks. And the new system has it maybe didn’t know, but new stuff has opportunities to streamline things to reduce effort. Is that too much change all at once? Or can you push out like both things at the same time. So real, practical example, we used to do in our client work, this elaborate process of pulling together data from Search Console on our SEO tool and a couple of places to present to a client, here’s what’s changed on your website. In the last month, you’ll hear the page that lost search traffic, I made a change that they couldn’t see where we just changed how we get that data now pull in data automatically from an API and not have to copy and paste and do all these things. It’s a huge time saver, and it’s better data. But, and, and to the client, it’s pretty much the same thing. Was that too much change all at once? Should we have handled that transition differently? Rather than saying, oh, here’s your report, nope, I was slightly different?

Katie Robbert 21:15
Well, you know, it really depends. And so there is no sort of one size fits all. And that’s why you really need to explore all of these different elements of change management. So you know, Chris, what you’re describing, if the data that the client is getting is the same data, regardless of how you got from A to B, then you didn’t need to communicate to them that something is different, as long as they are still getting the same consistent output and experience from the report, then that’s fine. There’s no communication needed there. So that you check that box. So then you start to work backwards from the output to actually how you’re getting the information. And so that process, now we’re in sort of this unique scenario, where it’s just you. So as long as you change the process, and you know what that change is, then that’s fine. But if you had a team of people who were helping you pull this report, there would need to be a different kind of communication plan. And it doesn’t have to be this like big company wide meeting. And I think that this is where, again, people get it wrong, doesn’t have to be overly complicated. It doesn’t have to be, you know, this elaborate planning of how are we going to tell people, what do we tell them? Are they going to be freaked out what you would have done in that scenario. So let’s say you had two analysts working under you, who were, you know, helping you pull this report, number one, Hey, guys, there’s a better way that we’re going to start pulling these reports, I want you to test it out a couple of times, make sure you’re comfortable with it. The main point is that the data doesn’t change for the client. But the way in which you’re pulling the information is actually a little bit faster. So I’ve already outlined the steps I want you to go through and try it a couple of times, make sure you’re comfortable with it, before you test it out on the client report. And then give them the opportunity to test out the new process. See if there’s any questions, see if there’s anything that you may have overlooked or not thought of to put into the process, and then you start to replace the old process with the new process. And then that’s it. And if they say, Well, why are we doing it this way? Well, we’re doing it this way, because it saves us time, the client gets the exact same information, and then we have more time and can scale to do other things. And then we’re not out of date with the latest and greatest best practices for how this information is pulled. How does this impact you directly? Well, you have more time, you know, so answering those questions of Me, me, me, I need to know how this directly impacts me.

Christopher Penn 23:40
Does that make sense? Absolutely. I’m so glad I don’t have staff.

Katie Robbert 23:47
So John, is this I feel like you’ve been you’ve worked at a lot of software companies. And it’s not. It’s not a unique problem to software. This is true of life in general. You know, Chris, to your point, you know, change is, it happens to say that there’s no change is not a thing. But John, does this bring up any, you know, scenarios that you’ve been through that you wish were handled differently? Or things that you saw that went? Well?

John Wall 24:12
Yeah, well, you know, on the software side, it’s good at that there is kind of this tradition of the beta tester, you know, and when you think about it, it’s really ridiculous. Like you have these, you know, highly adaptable probably early adopter customers who tend to be your best customers, and you just like, throw the junk over the wall and hit them with it. And, you know, most of the time, they just come back and tell you how to fix things and get it to work. But that really kind of leads me to a question with all this too soon. Now, when you’re rolling this stuff out, and you, you know, start to put it all together. How do the timeframes work out as far as like, How much time does it take to get everything in order versus actually do the rollouts versus the long term tracking and I definitely want to hear more about that because that’s where I see software totally dropped the ball. You know, it’s like, okay, the release went out a week ago and nobody’s screaming, so good. We’re done on to the next thing. And that’s just that’s Totally not, you know, there’s no accountability, no tracking nothing. And I know that’s that, you know, that’s not the way to do that.

Katie Robbert 25:06
Right? Well, and that’s where sort of the the last p in this procedure is performance did we do this? And so it comes down to I’m all about the alliteration. And I feel like I need to, like, over pronounce the peas every time I say them, like, purpose, people process. But really, it comes down to performance and that measurement plan of, you know, what are we doing? And did we do the thing we set out to do, it’s like, anything you do, you want to have some sort of metrics. And so there might be that time upfront for the planning. So we know, in the first three months, we’re going to invest more time because it’s going to save us time in the long run. So we’re okay with that upfront investment. For months, 123, because months four to 12, we’re going to save 10x the amount of time that we were spending before. So that first initial upfront investment is okay, we can live with that, provided we sort of stay on track and stay on schedule. So I mean, there’s different ways to handle it in software development, if you’re making a change, you break it down into those smaller milestones. And when you have a big change that you’re trying to make, whether it’s a brand new enterprise system, or you’re introducing a whole new organizational team, or you’re bringing on a new client, Chris, your question earlier, is it too much change at once there are situations where too much change at once can just completely fall flat. And that’s why when you want to break it down into those smaller milestones. You know, if you’re familiar with software development, you might be familiar with the Agile methodology, where you have the two week sprints, and then the milestones within each of those. And really, the principle behind that is that it’s meant to keep it small and contained and show progress every two weeks, because software development can be a bit of a black hole, otherwise, you just don’t know what’s happening. Think about the changes that you’re making. In the same way, what are small demonstratable milestones that you can hit with the change that you’re introducing. And so if you are being acquired by a larger organization, that larger organization, their responsibility is to demonstrate Okay, in month one, this is what’s going to happen in month two, this is what’s going to happen and even break it down smaller into those daily on Monday, this is what it looks like on Tuesday. It’s usually bagel day. Now it’s taco day, on Wednesday, it used to be pizza day, and now it’s bagel day, so that people have some sort of level of expectation of what the heck is happening. I’m so used to my routine, but you just serve me tacos instead of bagels, but I really wanted a bagel.

John Wall 27:43
Yeah, there’s been riots for less.

Katie Robbert 27:47
So I know I’ve been kind of droning on about, you know, all these different things that you should be doing. So really, you know, if you want to boil it down very succinctly, if you’re introducing any kind of change big, small, whatever it is, you should do some just basic principle things. Number one, why am I doing this? Why am I introducing this change? Why am I you know, deciding to switch gears altogether? If you can’t answer that question, it’s probably not a change that you should be making at that time. So that’s number one. Number two, who is doing this? Who’s impacted by this? Who needs to know about this change? Is it all internal? Is it all external? Is it just me? Or do I want to tell people for accountability process? How are we going to make this change? So let’s say you want to start running? Great, you’ve never run before? How are you going to do it, you should probably have some sort of a plan, a consistent plan, you can’t just wake up one morning and decide to run, you’re probably gonna hurt yourself, you’re probably gonna do it wrong, you’re probably gonna hate it, you know. So you have to have some sort of a process of how we’re going to get from where we are to our desired state of the change platform. This might be your switching platforms altogether. This might be you know, you’re using a Google Sheet to track your progress. This might be an app that you’re using to assist you keep reminders, or it might be some sort of a giant enterprise thing all together. And then performance, how did we do it? How are you going to measure that you did the thing. And so maybe it’s literally just showing up every day, and that’s your performance. Maybe it’s every time I do this task, I reduce it by 30 minutes, or by five minutes. Or maybe it’s every time I talk to a customer, their satisfaction rating went up from a three to a four, just making sure there’s some sort of a measure in place to demonstrate that this change that you’ve implemented, is working or not. So Chris, in that example of the merger and acquisition, maybe their measure their performance measurement, yes, money is a thing but also employee turnover and satisfaction. I was

Christopher Penn 29:53
just gonna say sometimes you want to measure no change. You don’t want attrition. You don’t want you know, 30% of your workforce leave or you know key employees leave and start their own consulting company.

Katie Robbert 30:05
Yep. I mean, I don’t I can’t think of a single time when that’s ever happened. But yes, that’s an excellent possibility of something that could very well happen.

John Wall 30:15
Well, that’s it so many mergers are disasters, you know, that just gets swept under the rug, you know, and a lot of companies are just using it as an excuse for some bad quarterly numbers. They’re like, Oh, yeah, we’ll just, if we lose 30% of those people, that’s just the cost of doing business, which is ridiculous, but the way it happens.

Katie Robbert 30:33
So in a nutshell, that wraps up sort of the basics of change management. So again, this episode is a little bit different from what we usually do, it’s a bit of a departure. You know, it’s not the cool, interesting AI, machine learning stuff that Chris usually does. However, it’s important because it’s the underlying foundation of how things get done. And so that’s why he has me to do all the really boring, uninteresting stuff. And so

Christopher Penn 30:58
the human stuff,

Katie Robbert 31:00
I do the human stuff. And that’s really sort of what it keeps coming back to is, this is the human stuff, because you can introduce a new machine learning algorithm will guess what a human introduced it. You can introduce a whole new piece of software, guess what? Someone still has to set it up. So you kit I’m sorry, Chris, you cannot get away from the human side of it. Not yet.

Christopher Penn 31:23
Not yet. Someday, someday, Chris.

John Wall 31:30
Hit up my GoFundMe, see if we can get me some human legs. I’m tired of these weird gray legs.

Katie Robbert 31:38
Well, I think on that note, that wraps up our episode for this week.

Christopher Penn 31:49
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