In this episode of In-Ear Insights (the Trust Insights podcast), Katie and Chris discuss the data available to marketers for social media analytics around TikTok, plus an in-depth discussion of influencer analytics and how to identify influencers on TikTok. Tune in to find out how – and get your copy of the new paper at TrustInsights.ai/tiktok today.
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What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for listening to the episode.
Christopher Penn 0:17
In this week's In-Ear Insights, we are talking all things social media analytics has a ton of stuff going on right now, as we record, this Social Media Marketing World is happening, we have a new partner offering with our friends over to Agorapulse on social media ROI, and our brand new paper on how to identify Tiktok influences which we'll spend some time on today, especially since a lot of what we've seen around the measurement of Tiktok book influencers, and in general, it kind of reminds me of like, 2010 social media where people are like, how many views did we get? How many followers do we have? And not really spending a lot of time on more, I guess, sophisticated and or more mature marketing measures.
So Katie, when you're thinking about Tiktok, particularly since you administer the Trust Insights, Tiktok channel, what are you thinking about for our social media analytics as it relates to Tiktok?
Katie Robbert 1:15
You know, it's, it's tough, because there's not at least it feels like from the outside, there's not a lot of data available on a platform such as tic toc.
And, you know, is it is it okay to get a lot of views but no likes? Is it okay to get a lot of likes, but no comments? Is it okay to get comments and no likes, like, it's, I feel like it's still something that, you know, I haven't fully wrapped my head around, like, you could break it down and say, Tik Tok is just like any other social media platform.
So go ahead and treat it the exact same way that you would an Instagram or a Twitter, or anything else.
But it's not though.
And I don't, I can't fully articulate why that is, to me, it feels more like a YouTube than it does an Instagram.
But it doesn't behave the way YouTube behaves like there is still a search function.
But you have this whole feed of things that the algorithm is suggesting, which YouTube has as well.
But the videos don't automatically start playing.
And I feel like you have a little bit more control over what you see on YouTube.
I don't know.
So that's sort of its, I guess the bottom line is Tiktok is still a little bit of a mystery to me.
And I, by no means feel like I've mastered it, I post our, you know, weekly videos and kind of cross my fingers and hope for the best.
Which is not a strategy.
By the way.
Christopher Penn 2:47
It is a strategy, it's just not necessarily the best stretch, it's not a good strategy is 100% a strategy.
Here's what's interesting about Tiktok, I think you highlight it really, really well that on social networks, there are two broad general, I guess, approaches.
One is the creator approach where you follow specific channels, specific people, things like that, right? You follow me on Twitter, follow me on Facebook, like us on LinkedIn, etc.
And then there are content based channels where you put in a topic like in YouTube search, for example, or on Tik Tok, or, you know, take your pick of a social network that is content focused where the creator is secondary to the content.
Tik Tok falls in that latter category, it's more about the relevance of the topic than it is the the Creator.
I've been putting up my daily posts about standing with Ukraine on my Tiktok channel, right? So same things I put on my Instagram Stories, has nothing to do with marketing.
And I have like 20 followers on Tiktok total, which I'm fine with because it's still just a playground for me.
And they're getting 1000s 1000s of views.
Because people are looking for the topic itself.
And even though I'm not building an audience with it, I'm getting reach now is this reads I want to be known for it Well, right now.
But in the long term, no.
But that's the difference between Tiktok like people think Tiktok and Instagram in particular are sort of in parallel, Instagram is still very much a creator focused platform, follow us on Instagram, like our stuff on Instagram, you know, put, you know, share our stories and things.
Tick tock is 100% A, a content focused platform and that's the big difference.
Katie Robbert 4:42
So I still find that to be a little bit confusing because you're saying once a creator once a content doesn't a creator create the content like that's where I when you start using those terms.
That's where I start to get a little confused of like, well, either way way you still, as a creator have to create content that people want to see.
So how is that? How is that different?
Christopher Penn 5:07
It's, I'm speaking from the audience's perspective, the when you and I, as consumers are on Tiktok, we are being served up content that we think would be interesting to us, not necessarily people, right.
Whereas if you go on Twitter, your Twitter will say, you know, here's some people you should follow on Facebook, here's some people you should connect with.
And those, those are very much personality focused algorithms, right? People you may know, LinkedIn, LinkedIn suggests, here's some people you should connect with who went to Boston University, or WPI, or whatever.
Those are people first Tiktok, and YouTube, our content, first, watch this video, we don't really care who made it, just watch this video, because we think you're going to like this particular topic that you've shown interest in, in the past.
And that's from a creative perspective, that's actually, you know, for us as a company, it's a lot harder.
Because normally, we're like, hey, follow us on these channels, and then you'll see our stuff with Tiktok.
That's not true.
Right? When you, when you open up the app, it says, you know, following and for you and for you is always the first tab that's highlighted in the homescreen.
And that's just the algorithm saying, here's some stuff that we're guessing, you're going to like whether or not you follow those people, whether or not you care about those people is irrelevant.
It is all about the content itself.
So one of the challenges we have with Tiktok is a is our audience even there, which some of them are Yes, lots of marketers are, but be are they looking for content that we have to share on there? Are they looking for content about analytics, a change management or, you know, ROI, social media ROI? The answers? Pretty much know, when you look, if you if you type in Tiktok, in the Hetal, hashtag search, one of the things it tells you is how many searches for that particular hashtag, and you look and stuff like, you know, market analytics like, nobody's there.
Nobody's looking for that form of entertainment, on Tiktok.
And so one of the challenges we have to figure out is, how do we find hashtags are still relevant, because we don't want to mislead people, but have higher reach and visibility for people who are interested in those topics?
Katie Robbert 7:29
Well, and I feel like that then.
So you're saying that Instagram and Tiktok are different, but that is a similar challenge that B2B companies have on Instagram, because Instagram is a very visual platform, you have to have a picture, you have to have a video, whereas on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter, you don't have to have an image or a video in order to make a post.
And so that then becomes a challenge for B2B companies like ours, that what we do isn't super visual, and US posting a bunch of selfies of ourselves is not necessarily on brand for the company.
And so we have a similar challenge with Tiktok, where, you know, we're recording this podcast, we have the corresponding video, but is it compelling enough on a platform, like Tiktok, to compete with, you know, people who are making up dances, people are showing you how to cook, you know, puppies doing amazing things, I would say that our video probably in the long run isn't going to do super well, compared to those things in terms of why people go on to the platform.
Christopher Penn 8:42
So our challenges, can we find things that are still relevant to us, but are suited for that platform? Because you're absolutely right, you know, watching some talking heads is not super, super compelling, to you know, compared to the cat videos.
What if you think back to when we worked at our old agency, you know, we'd struggled even then with what to do with Instagram, and the general consensus was show more, you know, employee life, company culture and stuff like that, because nobody wants to read a press release it period, but they especially don't want to read a press release on Instagram.
So that the challenge became how do you create content that is sort of that human centric content that that if it's not at least entertaining, at least, it's informative, and at least gives people's you know, some sense of emotional connection? And that's, I mean, that's true of all content, but especially on a content first platform.
You've got to have some, you know, quote The old Bruce Lee you need emotional content.
Katie Robbert 9:48
The challenge I always found with that kind of a strategy of like, okay, show more of the staff members, than the account only appeals to other staff members because You know, if I don't work at that company, I don't.
Or if I don't want to work at that company, I don't care what the teams are doing.
That's not of interest to me.
So why would I follow that account on a platform just to watch their employees working like that to me? I don't know.
Christopher Penn 10:18
Well, we used it back then as a recruiting tool, right? Because obviously, back then a lot of the staff had similar friends of similar backgrounds and you know, that company needed to as many just, you know, warm bodies with pulses as possible in you know, the junior most seats.
Katie Robbert 10:34
So, when we start talking about social media analytics, you we recently just published this whole paper on finding how to find influencers on Tik Tok.
And so influencer marketing is something that is not going anywhere.
And companies still use influencers in a variety of different ways.
So what are some of the big takeaways that you discover doing this analysis? Because when I look at a platform like Tiktok, I'm like, is it enough to just have a lot of views of your video like so some videos get like 2 million likes? Does that make them an influencer? Does it is the definition of an influencer in Tiktok different from the definition of an influencer? And on any other social media platform?
Christopher Penn 11:24
I don't know.
Well, here's the here's the interesting thing.
A, because Tiktok uses a similar naming convention as Instagram and Twitter, you can absolutely use the same algorithms for identifying who is most talked about, on tick tock.
And that's obviously a very simple way to figure out who's which creators do best.
But one of the aspects I think is so important about Tiktok analytics, and influencer identification in particular, is because it is a content first platform, you can't just pull a list of you know, who's most talked about, even if you put in your list the hashtag of your choice, and just pull from that data, you still can't rely on that data alone, you have to go the extra step and figure out how aligned is that influencer with your topic of choice? So let's say it's analytics, right? So because the content first platform, the audience that follows a creator, is there for that, that type of content? Right, so someone may put up, say, you know, 150, skateboarding videos, and they put up one video about at the, the analytics of skateboarding, I'm just making this up totally.
And all their stuff does reasonably well, because people like to check in on their favorite creators.
If you just went with who was most talked about, and, and picked up that video in, in hashtags, that creator who's making skateboard videos, isn't necessarily influential about analytics, nor is their audience their for analytics content, even though they mentioned it right.
Maybe there's a baseball influence that we're talking about, you know, the analytics of of sports and choosing teams.
The the missing piece to almost every piece of influence marketing software is going then going through and seeing how topically aligned is this creator on a regular basis about the topic we care about? Right? It'd be like me, putting up a Tiktok video about skateboarding, right? If you follow me personally, you know what, I mostly do stuff about analytics and data science, right.
And if I absolutely have to do something about skateboarding great, if you follow me after watching one Tiktok video about skateboarding, you're gonna be really disappointed and abandon ship pretty quickly when the the next 99 videos are all about, you know, regression.
And so, in the paper, we talk about the importance of you must do that validation of topical alignment.
Is this the audience of this creator expecting more content about the topic of choice? If you follow me on tick tock, you should expect more for now, we should expect more content about Ukraine, right? Because that's my last 10 videos and all about and if you're there for that, great if you're not there for that, it's going to be somewhat disappointing.
So that's, I think, probably the most important point of the entire paper is that you cannot approach influencer identification on Tik Tok solely by who's most talked about, you have to check the topical alignment.
Katie Robbert 14:34
So it's interesting you keep saying who's most talked about? And I think a lot of influencer marketing managers approach it as who's doing the most talking.
So why do you always reference it as who's most talked about versus who's doing the most talking?
Christopher Penn 14:55
For two reasons in there network theory.
There's three different kinds of nodes within a network, right? There's an origination node where a network starts, there are distribution nodes, where messages are passed from one node to another.
And then there are sort of, you know, oh yeah, so connected nodes, then distribution is connected nodes and nodes that interconnect other nodes, those distributions, which have one super node has a lot of other connections.
And we tend to reclassify those in marketing speak as, you know, sort of thought leaders, mayors, and then broadcasters, right, so a thought leader may come with idea may or may connect that thought leader with a broadcast and a broadcast to somebody who's got, you know, 2 million followers, and just their a human ad channel.
When we look at how influencer marketing and influencer analytics are done now, in most social media analytics focuses too much on who's got the biggest mouth who's got the biggest audience? Right.
And the challenge with that approach is that if you use that data, you're gonna find the people with you know, 1020 30 50 million 100 million users in their audience, and it's going to cost you 1020 30 $50 million to interact with it, right, like you want to find the most influential person on on Instagram, you know, it's Dwayne Johnson, right? How much is it gonna cost you to do a brand partnership with Dwayne Johnson, it's probably gonna be eight figures.
To do that, can you identify people that he looks to, for content to share now, that's a relatively poor example, because like 99% of his stuff is about him.
But there are other situations where, let's say that you and I are on Tik Tok.
And for some reason, I've got a million fans, but I reshare like 30%, your stuff, I tagged you all the time.
If someone was looking for influencer identification, and said, you know, Chris is too expensive, but Katie might be less expensive, you may want to pay your $10,000 to share stuff instead of paying Chris $100,000.
And the probability of Chris picking up some of Katy stuff and re sharing it is, is pretty substantial.
In that model, then you would be the more logical choice for to start for an influencer campaign, because you're more of that Mayor role than you are the broadcaster role.
Katie Robbert 17:19
Got it? Okay.
And for the record, I will always be more expensive than you always know, and that's helpful.
Because I think that that's something that, you know, like, I know what you have that approach.
But I think people who aren't familiar with the Trust Insights version of influencer marketing and social media analytics, why we pick that approach of who's most talked about, versus who's doing the most talking.
And so, you know, when we put out those network graphs, which, if you're listening to this podcast this week, you know, stay tuned for network graphs for social media marketing world's coming up, um, you know, you'll be able to see who's being talked about the most, because that means that people were listening to the things that those people had to say, versus, you know, the spam bots that are just like pushing out useless information, but yet they are doing the most talking.
You know, so what are the other analytics, because when I look at our Tiktok account as a business account, I still feel like I'm pretty limited in the amount of data that I can get from Tiktok.
You know, I can get likes, I can get, you know, shares, I can get the basics.
And I feel like, if I were trying to build a whole strategy around the company's use of Tiktok, that's not enough for me.
So what else in terms of analytics is available in Tiktok? Or what are some of the things that are available that I'm just not realizing would be useful?
Christopher Penn 19:00
There's two pools of data that are super helpful.
You obviously have things like views and likes and comments on Tiktok videos, and those are good calibration measures to sales.
Okay, let's make sure that in our data set of 10 million posts we're working with, we're using the top 10% Most Viewed because we're trying to get more views, right, I guess that'd be the first point would be like, what is the analytical goal you're after? On platform first and then worrying about what happens outside of the platform.
But there's the user's bio essentially.
And then there's the text that goes with the post and those two things.
Pretty much every tool ignores right? A lot of the tools out there the the few that are decent focus mostly on just the hashtags themselves and not the freeform text.
And when you do an analysis of the bios of the people to figure out like you know what information is available to help you understand the audience better, yes, you have to do some natural language processing on it.
But it's very informative, because it tells you a lot about the people you're evaluating to figure out are these people relevant or not.
And then the other one is the text itself, right? When somebody posts you have what 120 characters, I think on your average Tiktok post to be able to, to identify it and add hashtags and handles and stuff like that, that's valuable space.
So people will be parsimonious with with, you know, filler text and focus mainly on the content they want to share.
And that information, I think, is very, very helpful.
One thing that occurred to me after we wrote the paper is that we should take our influence identification software, and also repeat it, altering the code to see how hashtags interact with each other, because I think that would be a very interesting exploration at some point.
So maybe stay tuned for a version two of the paper in a couple of months.
But that those two fields contain a ton of information.
And there's other stuff too.
You can see what music people associate with their videos, what you know, what songs, they work into the videos, I think that's interesting, because again, that tells you a bit about your audience, if you've got a set of 10 influences you identified, and for those influencers, you know, they share videos with Taylor Swift's music, you know, nine out of 10 times, that's a usable insight into who that audience is, you know, it's that audience how to select that kind of music.
From that, and you know, and a few other things, you can start to make even inferences about who the audience of those people are based on the music they listen to, like is there you know, nine out of 10 are sharing videos with, with Taylor Swift music, you know, and one attends got, I don't know Metallica in there, then you know that one influencer might not necessarily be aligned with the overall crowd.
And combined with your own first party market research, you should be able to say like, yes, this influence is probably aligned with our crowd, if you know that.
Your audience is, you know, 20 to 27 year old lesbians, then the Taylor Swift thing was gonna align perfectly with that you're on target, right? So you have your, you have your first party research, you have your Tiktok data.
And then you have the network analysis and the natural language processing of that data to say, are we aligned with who we think our target audience is?
Katie Robbert 22:36
And so another, so I know views are important, another important metric as well.
But one of the things I see a lot, especially for smaller accounts, like animal shelters who are trying to get, you know, support is if you view this video four times, that it's going to be shown, you know, to more people.
And so how does the Tiktok so this is another big difference with like, Tiktok, versus a Twitter or an Instagram or even YouTube, where it seems like within the algorithm, the number of times the video was viewed, then sort of changes, you know, the number of people who can see the thing.
And so like I said, I see a lot of smaller organizations say, you know, please view this video four times, so that more people can see it.
So how does that factor into sort of the overall, you know, Tiktok influencer? So people watch the video, you know, hundreds of hundreds of times, because it's, you know, so entertaining, that if that starts to become viral, is that how that algorithm is working?
Christopher Penn 23:51
We don't know.
We don't know.
We don't know the inner workings of TiC TOCs algorithm, we do know, based on statements from the company that views certainly do count engagements count quite a bit.
And the way it works is it's not a global algorithm.
It is a count based algorithm.
So if you Katie watch, you know, Puppy videos, for like 10 minutes.
Very shortly, your entire for you recommendation feed is going to be all puffy videos, right? Because Tiktok is gonna say like, Hey, I nailed it.
What I can see what Katie likes, I'm going to give her more of what she likes, because I wanted to stick around on the surface as long as possible.
And like we started out talking about the content focus of the algorithm is very, very strong, where the algorithm is saying, you know, we want to focus on the content that's going to make a stick around, regardless of who makes it.
So something like an animal shelter video or you know, try and do that.
Yes, that will probably have some effect, but getting people to engage with the video is is going to be even more impactful.
And making sure that is tagged properly, will be more impactful.
as well, because if you, if it doesn't have the correct hashtags, it does have the correct text to make it discoverable for those topics, it's going to have a hard time being seen.
On the other hand, if you have, you know, use tag video puppies, and it does, in fact, contain puppies, and you get strong engagement from the audits of use it the album's likely to pick up and say, Okay, this one thing should be shown more for puppies.
So every time you know, the obvious hashtag a surface, let's make sure this video is included in the roster.
Katie Robbert 25:29
So it's interesting that you mentioned hashtags.
And I feel like this is it's something that, you know, I can make some assumptions about, but you know, so you would mention, it might be interesting to see how hashtags interact with one another.
Another thing that I see on Tik Tok is, um, you know, every few days, a different hashtag is like the thing.
And it's always I feel like, it's always like some kind of a challenge.
Like, right now, the hashtag I see on everybody's video is like, the Adam project, which is a movie that just came out on Netflix, you know, previously, it was things like the Mountain Dew challenge, or, you know, who knows what, and those things have zero to do with the videos themselves.
But people are trying to use those hashtags to become viral, like, I'll even see people hashtagging viral in their videos.
And so I feel like, yes, the hashtags will be interesting to see.
But at the same time, I also feel like, unlike on Instagram, for example, the hashtags are completely irrelevant to the videos, whereas, you know, and I can't say there's 100% true on Instagram, but I feel like the hashtag you see associated with the post, or at least associated with the post, like they're relevant to the post, whereas on Tik Tok, you're gonna have absolutely nothing to do with the post, and people are just trying to get the video seeds.
Christopher Penn 26:54
And that is partly because people have had less time to study Tiktok algorithm and try to reverse engineer what makes it tick.
Parviz because Tiktok has been substantially less revealing, even the within the Facebook about the inner workings of that algorithm.
And we don't we don't really understand even under the hood, how the algorithms like what the algorithms architecture is, is it deep learning based is it you know, something stats based, we know, for example, that with both Facebook and Instagram, the algorithms under the hood recompile and retrain about once an hour, right, we know they're very, very fast moving, and the the the software powering them is almost fully automated.
We don't know any of that.
For Tiktok, we have no idea what bytedance has going on behind the scenes.
And as a result, people are just kind of flinging stuff, you know, into videos just to see if anything sticks.
And sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't, but I've not seen yet.
Anything that conclusively says this is what is likely to create the outcome you want.
When we look at the data.
You know, we've got, I think about 40 or 50 million videos index right now and Tiktok.
The thing that highlight most correlates views is really the engagements, the likes and the comments, right? It's very, very simplistic, looking at the different hashtags, you know, all the ones viral for you, etc, have very little relationship to the actual views.
And to the point of being contacted content, even the number of followers you have doesn't necessarily have a strong correlation with video views.
So it's, it's kind of a still a bit of a black box.
Now as we continue to accumulate data on it, maybe some more patterns will emerge for right now.
I'm not sure and you know, I'd say we've probably got one of the larger datasets accrued on Tiktok.
And figuring out like, what's making things pop, it's very difficult.
Katie Robbert 28:58
What about length of video? Because I've also seen, okay, I'm trying the seven second video, I'm trying the 10 second video, I'm trying the 32nd video.
I would imagine the the amount of time someone spends watching a video is counted toward the the overall engagement number, but have you found in your analytics that the length of the video itself has any bearing on the ability for it to be shown
Christopher Penn 29:26
a minor one, and I think that is a case where the data itself is a little bit spurious.
Because Logically, if you have a seven second video, and somebody happens to you know, leave your page up for a minute, you're automatically gonna get what, six, seven more views, maybe eight more views, eight times, eight more views in that period of time.
Then you would have one minute view because logically, it's just much shorter can repeat itself over and over again.
So that's a case I'm not sure there's a causal relationship.
I think it may just be purely correlative.
Katie Robbert 30:06
Yeah, I also recently saw that Tiktok was going to start allowing 10 minute videos, which, yep, to me feels a little excessive for a platform like that I feel like the amount of and maybe this is just me personally, I feel like the amount of attention span for Tiktok is like, quick, and you know, fast paced and, you know, you want to keep scrolling through, and a 10 minute video is going to be harder to, you know, keep someone's attention, you know, so I guess we'll see what happens there.
But that's where it starts to make me think it's trying to be like a YouTube, so it borrowed from Instagram, and YouTube, in terms of its, you know, UX and functionality.
And it's kind of just sitting somewhere in the middle.
Christopher Penn 30:52
And that's that it really is sort of the essence of this thing has to be treated like its own thing.
It's not one or the other.
And so you can't copy and paste your Instagram strategy and expect it to work on tick tock, nor can you copy and paste your YouTube strategy.
They're different beasts.
And that, I think, is a critical part of understanding your Tiktok strategy is you have to approach it as its own thing, you have to treat it as its own thing.
Katie Robbert 31:18
So what is the so what of all of this the you know, if we're talking about social media analytics, and we're talking about influencers on Tik Tok? It sounds to me some of the so what is it's a completely different beast, you have to treat it differently.
You can't use your Instagram influencer strategy and apply it to tick tock you can use pieces of it, but you have to understand it's not going to be a one to one match.
You know, finding people who are the most talked about is going to be a better approach than people who are just getting the most likes and views because it may just be going into the void.
What are some of the other key takeaways?
Christopher Penn 31:59
The big one is this.
When you are vetting influencers on Tik Tok, you must focus on topical alignment, right you must focus on who has whose audience is expecting the kind of content that you want to be sharing whether it's on your own channel or with other people's channels.
Because as to your point, as Tiktok rolls out longer form videos people will be sticking around to for the content they want.
So the accidental stumbling upon you is not going to be a sustainable long term strategy.
be laser focused on the topical alignment.
Katie Robbert 32:37
That makes absolute sense because there is one Tiktok account that I follow where this woman has nine Newfoundland dogs.
And every night She records the video of the night night cookies.
And so every dog gets you know, put to bed and they get their cookie.
She says goodnight to all of them.
I love those videos.
But when she creates videos, where she's herself on camera, doing something like I don't care about that, show me the dogs again.
And so it is interesting, you know, as my you know, tiny brain starts to put all the pieces together what you're saying, like, oh, okay, that's what you're saying.
Now it's relevant to me when I apply it to videos of dogs.
Christopher Penn 33:19
If you've got some things that you've picked up with on Tiktok that working for you.
Let us know in our free slack group go to trust insights.ai/analytics for marketers, and wherever it is you watch or listen to the show.
If there's a platform you rather see it on.
Go to trust insights.ai/ti podcast, we can find the show on most platforms.
Thanks for tuning in.
We'll talk to you next time.
Katie Robbert 33:41
Oh wait, Chris, before we wrap up, where can people find the Tiktok paper?
Christopher Penn 33:45
You can go to trust insights.ai/tiktok
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