So What? A live recording of Marketing Over Coffee

So What? Marketing Analytics and Insights Live

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In this episode of So What? The Trust Insights weekly livestream, you’ll learn about project management and the software development lifecycle, with a special live recording of Marketing Over Coffee. Discover how to choose the right tools for your marketing projects and avoid common pitfalls. You will understand the importance of proper data and process in project management, not just the tools themselves. Gain insight into applying software development principles to AI initiatives and learn how to get started with requirements gathering for new projects.

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So What? A live recording of Marketing Over Coffee

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In this episode, we’ll cover:

What generative AI tools are best for solving data problems
How to do data analysis with generative AI & Python 3
A walkthrough processing a spreadsheet with ChatGPT and Python 3
What to do if you don’t know how to code

Transcript:

What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for listening to the episode.

Katie Robbert – 00:18
Well, hey everyone. Happy Thursday. Welcome to So What? The Marketing Analytics and Insights Live Show. And as a special treat today, John and I are actually doing a live recording of Marketing Over Coffee. So let’s get all set up for that. So, John, it’s Marketing Over Coffee. I’m turning it over to you.

John Wall – 00:39
Just throwing it my way. Okay. Yes. We can jump right into what we’ve got going on. There’s a bunch of stuff happening. Christopher is on the road. He has been doing his road tour and actually we were talking with you a couple weeks ago and as part of my co-working arrangement, I actually ended up getting bounced. It’s a long, complicated story that nobody wants to hear, but basically we were cut short. And so I was like, oh, we’ve got to get you back. We want to talk some more because we had a bunch of other stuff on the list too.

John Wall – 01:04
And so leading off, what I wanted to kick into is project management because this is something that you have a ton of experience from, both on just normal corporate projects and then also software development lifecycle. And I’ve done a bunch of stuff in the same arenas. So we have a whole list of gripes and complaints. But we figure we could start with some best practices and where things are going. But yeah, to lead off with, I guess just what’s. Well, yeah, let me lay down a little bit more foundation too, though, as we go over in analytics for marketers, if you’re not familiar, that we’re talking about every week, that’s where we have discussions and we kind of get the initial research for this kind of stuff. We talked about project management. And so the list that came out of there was.

John Wall – 01:48
Here’s the whole rundown. We’ve got Asana, Jira, Monday, Trello, Mississippi Project, Wrike, Basecamp, Airtable, Excel. So that’s beyond my, like Wrike, I’ve never used. Do you even know what that one is? No. Okay, so. But Asana has been kind of king of the hill over the past couple years for everything that I’ve seen as far as just a lot of people using it. Easy access. But yeah, where do you want to start on that list? I guess. So if we’re going to start taking potshots at tools and process, where do you want to go?

Katie Robbert – 02:19
Well, I was trained more formally on Microsoft Project, which I still have a soft spot for. It’s very, there’s a lot of good about Microsoft Project, but unless you’re in a Microsoft shop, you tend to not have access to Microsoft Project as a standalone. So, you know, you’re not going to find a company who’s a Google shop that’s also going to have Microsoft Project. I mean, that does, that scenario does exist. But typically, if you have the Microsoft Suite or you’re in Microsoft 365 or something like that, then you use Microsoft Project. If you’re using SharePoint, you likely have Microsoft Project, those kinds of things. But that’s not exclusively true. So we also know a lot of companies that will use SharePoint and a Jira or a Basecamp or Trello or all of the above.

Katie Robbert – 04:01
So, so for example, you know, we want to know, you know, is Chris over-resourced? Well, in order to know that, we have to get every little last piece of data into the tool in order to see that. But then we also have to make sure we’re keeping it up to date. And so a lot of it comes down to process. So the tools are great. I would say, you know, honestly, you can’t go wrong with any tool. Where it goes wrong is the people in the process of someone actually managing it, keeping it up to date. That’s why project managers exist. I love them. I was one. Your sole focus is keeping these tools up to date. And it is a thankless job because as soon as you get the information in, it’s changed. And so you’re constantly chasing people.

Katie Robbert – 04:46
And a lot of these tools, depending on what you’re doing, aren’t set up for like agile development, for example. They’re more waterfall. So like those are all the things that you have to like know and take into consideration. John, I could talk your ear off about project management tools all day long. So I just want to kind of like stop there. Hopefully, I’ve given you enough of a foundation to jump off from.

John Wall – 05:09
Yeah, right, to jump in. Well, I think admitted very important point that people miss because I hadn’t even thought about this as we were doing the outline is the difference between project management and task management. Really, a bunch of these tools are task managers. Like that’s where they excel. It’s just kind of like here’s all the things that they need to do, but it’s not project management. And it’s funny, a lot of them are good at, like, okay, here’s the people that are on this one. So that’s where it goes. But very few of them will go as far as budget, you know, putting dollar figures on things to actually see. And that is part of project management. So, yeah, most of these tools are really only task managers. And it’s interesting too, talking about how it is. It’s all about data and integrations, right?

John Wall – 05:47
Like there’s a lot of tools on this list that are not coming from a project background, whether it’s software or some other area. But it makes sense because it can grab data from those other systems or processes. You know, if you’ve got Jira, you’re unlocking your whole software development project, you know, whole process and being able to pull in your developer time and hours spent in features and support tickets, like all that kind of stuff, which makes a project management tool a lot more powerful. And you’re basically skipping all these steps of having to integrate stuff and get things. But I want to talk about project. I didn’t want it to be a full-on complaint session about Microsoft Project, but I think a key point with that is that it was such a great tool during its heyday that it still survives.

John Wall – 06:32
Like literally everyone wants it dead, but it’s, you know, it maintains and it lives because you can buy a standalone version. But even yesterday, I went to the Microsoft site and when you try to go to it, at 404s, you can’t even get to it. Like it’s not accessible. But one of the key wins with that, I’d always seen, was the fact that you can have your project and it handles dependencies so well. If one thing somebody has to take a vacation X week, you update the project plan and it moves everything. Everything that person has to be in on now gets pushed out a week because they’re not around. And that’s what you want with project management software is for it to save you.

John Wall – 07:13
When you don’t realize that like, oh, you know, because of this weird random thing of these five people being on vacation, you know, these four weeks, two months from now, that is going to put our, you know, deadline in jeopardy and we need to work around that. So, yeah, I don’t know. Again, we’re talking as both project fans, but is there anything else that kind of comes to mind when you’re talking about Project and how it compares to the other tools in the stack that?

Katie Robbert – 07:37
Are, you know, with Microsoft Project, people saw it as inflexible, whereas I saw the tool as incredibly powerful. Yes, it was more suited for a waterfall process. We tried to make it work for a more iterative, like an agile software development process. At the time, at least, it really wasn’t well suited to do that. It really was more suited for a waterfall process. But a lot of the pros, and I know that some of the tools like Asana and Jira and probably even Monday and Basecamp, and they probably all do these things. But again, it’s, you know, the data that goes in, like Microsoft Project, you could list all your resources, you could list their hourly rates, you could list their working hours or how many hours a day they were available, for example, and it would start to build out this resourcing plan.

Katie Robbert – 08:34
So, you know, we would use it for, we had a lot of cross-functional teams. And so I would have my developers and my designers and my marketers and my salespeople and, you know, the research team and the epidemiologist and I would have all of those resources in and all of that data in because I was being asked questions like, how much is this? If we do this thing, how much does it cost? And I could have done that on a spreadsheet. I could have said this is what they’re telling me. But then I couldn’t also build out that timeline with dependencies as easily. Microsoft Project, at least from my point of view, was really the gold standard of this is the tool that does all the things you want it to do.

Katie Robbert – 09:18
Now you have, we use Asana internally at Trust Insights and we’ve started using it more like we would use a Microsoft Project with resources and milestones and dependencies and showing the team like this is what that looks like. Is it as powerful as Microsoft Project? In my opinion, again, one person’s opinion, no. But I do think that if we start to use it consistently in the way that we’re hoping to, then we can get there. I know Basecamp is a really powerful tool. Jira is a really powerful tool. I personally tend to think of Jira as more of like a support ticket tool. But I think that it really is, you know, you can use it as a project management tool.

Katie Robbert – 09:59
You know, it’s interesting and I know that we’re going to talk a little bit about the SDLC, but in my mind, there’s a difference between the project lifecycle and the software development lifecycle. And this was always a point of tension at my old company because depending on who you talk to, the software development lifecycle was it. That was all you did and that included the project lifecycle. But the. But if you talk to anyone in the PMO, and I would love to get people’s comments on this, see how other people are feeling. You know, the software development lifecycle was part of the overall project lifecycle. It was just a segment of it versus the software development lifecycle was.

John Wall – 10:47
Yeah, no, everything you’ve said is right on the mark. And we will, we’ll dive in a little bit more on software development lifecycle because that has its own batch of stuff. But one thing I wanted to do is I’ll just run down the tool list and throw some, you know, my impressions on some of these out and see if you agree as far as how some of this stuff works. I have Asana and Monday are both kind of similar. They’re leaders of SaaS. Like it’s easy to get into, everybody can do it. They kind of understand where it goes. Jira is just what you said, ticketing there. There’s a lot of the whole Atlassian infrastructure is there, so there’s all kinds of other stuff to jump into it. Trello, I did want to mention the key with Trello for me has always been cards.

John Wall – 11:24
And that’s more for an individual thing. If cards are part of your workflow, like I’ll have, even for event management, cards are great because you just want to be able to move a card along the board and see where things are at. A lot of the other tools can’t handle the cards as well. I’m not up to date on the state of cards for everybody, but I know Trello is very good at that end of things. And then Basecamp and a lot of marketing and content areas is just great because you can throw in all the other assets in there.

John Wall – 11:52
You know, I know there’s agencies that will have a Basecamp set up for every client and then you can have your clients accessing their own content and proofing stuff and you can have all the digital assets in there and people can get to them. So that makes it a unique solution over there. And then just Airtable and Excel. Yeah. If you’re in a no-budget situation, you can do these tools that are just beefed-up spreadsheets and that will work. It can get you there. I don’t know, what do you think about that? Is there anything I missed on that line or things you see differently for some of those tools?

Katie Robbert – 12:23
No, I think that, you know, that’s a really good summary. And I want to go back to Basecamp because Basecamp, similar tools like Notion, which isn’t surprisingly on this list, or basically they kind of become almost like an ecosystem. And I think that’s what a lot of these tools are trying to be, is sort of an ecosystem of here’s your repository of all of your assets and all of your background information. And so almost like that one-stop shop. And so I think that, you know, if that’s what you’re trying to create, then there are definitely tools that do that. Well, Basecamp being one of them. You know, there’s a lot of chat functions included in those systems. So you don’t have to have like an external discord or a Slack or email. Everything can be contained within it.

Katie Robbert – 13:09
That’s what SharePoint was meant to do as a complement to Microsoft Project. So you have your repository for all of your assets and everything, and then you have your project planning tool, whereas tools like Basecamp and Notion kind of encompass all of that, you know, but you make certain sacrifices when, you know, you’re saying this is more of a community tool versus a project management tool. And so it really comes down to what are you trying to do with the tool? You know, I think that I personally don’t love SharePoint. I have not met a person who likes SharePoint. I’ve developed in SharePoint. I’ve stood up multiple SharePoint instances. Maybe it’s come a long way, but I think.

Katie Robbert – 14:03
Whereas if you have like a Basecamp or a Notion of where it’s all encompassed in one thing, that’s really helpful. I mean, my brain is kind of spinning in a multi, in multiple different ways, trying to think of like everything I know about project management tools. So you need to reign me back in, John.

John Wall – 14:20
Yeah, well, they’re all over the place that I do. I think we’ve at least given people a rough idea of some places where they can start, you know, depending on what they want to do. But it is a good transition is right into software development lifecycle, which we’ve, it’s kind of, we’ve come at it from the tactic and what we really wanted to talk about, what was on the topic list, is this idea that so many marketing people now are facing their managers or their boards or whatever who are saying to them, you need to be doing more AI. You know, let’s have an AI initiative. And it’s just all about the tools.

John Wall – 14:48
And one of the things that we’ve seen over and over again and you’ve championed is this idea that you need to apply the software development lifecycle because these are just like any other software tools. You know, all this AI stuff is used to do other things in the business. And the key is not to just start cherry-picking tools and messing around. The idea is fix, you know, find a business problem, do a 5P analysis, which we talk about at Trust Insights all the time, and using the software development lifecycle too, to get in there and figure out how this thing gets implemented, set up, what are the dependencies for it, you know, how does it get tested, how does it get bug fixed? All these things are just normal software development process. So I guess, you know, backing up.

John Wall – 15:33
We should probably jump into software development lifecycle a little bit more though to talk about that. So when you’re saying that people should be using more SDLC principles for AI, where do they start? What’s the first thing they should be doing?

Katie Robbert – 15:49
Requirements gathering. That is the lead off of any SDLC. So the SDLC software development lifecycle, the standard, like basic phases of an SDLC are requirements gathering, design, development, testing, and then, you know, iteration, refinement, and then you sort of start all over again. How quickly you move through those phases really depends on the kinds of processes that you have built into your organization as a whole. And so, you know, I’ve mentioned waterfall and I’ve mentioned agile. Very high level, you know, I’m not trying to, you know, come after people who subscribe to the Agile manifesto. It has its place in time. But at a high level, waterfall is if you think about like a set of stairs, everything is dependent. You can’t move down to the next step until you’ve completed phase one.

Katie Robbert – 16:46
So you have to finish your requirements before you can move on to design. You have to finish design before you can move on to development. Whereas with Agile, you do a lot of these things concurrently. You take the plan as a whole, you break it down into smaller pieces, and then you do define, design, development, testing, iteration, and then you sort of start all over again while doing the next milestone in parallel. And so it’s meant to move quicker. And what I was actually saying to Chris this morning, because Chris was asking, he’s like, you know, with AI, does it sort of negate the need for Agile because you’re moving so much faster? And I said, no, absolutely not. Because it’s a process, it’s the coding itself is going faster. The process itself is not, if you can’t get the right requirements.

Katie Robbert – 17:40
And so to answer your question, that’s a very long way to answer your question, John. Where you start with the SDLC is requirements gathering. And too often AI or not, people are jumping right into coding and developing and just sort of like, let’s see what happens.

John Wall – 17:55
Yeah, and it’s interesting too, actually. I haven’t done any, seen any research on this, but with so much stuff being web-based now, it seems like continuous development is the majority of stuff that’s happening out there. You know, I can’t think of many software products that are doing big bang stuff, I guess, for, you know, phone infrastructure, you know, big giant OSS or versions of Windows and things like that. But everything else, yeah, it’s just. And there’s a whole rat hole to go down with agile development.

John Wall – 18:24
We had done a bunch of research on this years ago, but it’s basically this idea that by testing and implementing features and functions on a weekly or faster basis, when you look at your calendar, the problem with waterfall is if you’re doing quarterly releases or greater, you can have entire quarters that get lost and wasted because if something gets broken or some feature doesn’t take off the way it’s supposed to, you just have these tremendous losses that you can rack up. This idea of constantly refining and deploying gives you an advantage where at the end of the year, you know, you’re never going to have a bad quarter, like you may have a couple bad weeks, but it just makes a lot more sense. And yeah, for folks who haven’t dug into it, this is.

John Wall – 19:09
There’s a completely religious level of fanaticism over Agile and what it is and the, you know, the manifesto versus what actually happens in the real world and things like that. And we don’t want to get too, you know, torn up and all that, but yeah, we’ll kind of leave it at that. So one thing I wanted to throw out too is talking about these situations where people are told that they need to do more AI. How do you deal with that? One method for that, and we’ve used this. Chris has made it. The core of training is that there are seven general use cases for AI. You’ve got extraction, classification, summarization, rewriting, synthesis, question answering, and generation. And so that’s an easy go-to.

John Wall – 19:50
If somebody’s like, hey, you need to do more AI, well, you can say, okay, well, which of these seven things do you want us to do? Start chasing. And that at least, you know, gets you out of the, like, oh, let’s just spend two weeks.

Katie Robbert – 20:26
Well, I want to acknowledge we have a comment from our friend Brian Piper, who says Vibe coding is throwing a wrench into the SDLC. And Brian, I don’t disagree with you. So we did a. We recorded a live stream and probably a podcast too, over at Trust Insights about Vibe Coding. And I personally, again, NF1, but I have a lot of experience with the SDLC. I think that there’s a lot of danger. It’s a very harsh word, but there’s a lot of things to be careful of when you’re Vibe coding, because Vibe coding makes it sound like anybody can code, which is true. However, if you don’t know what you’re doing in terms of software development, then it can go wrong really quickly.

Katie Robbert – 21:19
So, for example, if you don’t know that you have to put in privacy protocols or your software should not be hackable, for example, or if you’re collecting information, how do you keep that information secure? If you’re like, I want to build an app, let me just Vibe code it and see what happens. The machine is going to do it for me. If you don’t know the foundational pieces of the software development lifecycle, or even just software development in general best practices, it could go really wrong. And so I agree, Brian, that Vibe coding is sort of wrenching the SDLC because it skips that foundational piece of, let’s write down some requirements. Now you can use generative AI to write requirements. You can say, hey, generative AI, large language model, I want to do a thing.

Katie Robbert – 22:06
But first, I want to make sure I have requirements so that it doesn’t go off the rails. Can you help me do that? Absolutely, you can do that. So I think, John, to answer your question, the way that you’re getting faster is you’re using these tools as almost like the note-taker. You still have to have the idea, but it’s going to also sort of like, hey, did you think about this? Hey, what about privacy? Hey, what about governance? Hey, what about security? It can ask you those questions if you say, I want to do this as safely, as securely, best practices protect my customers. And it’s going to go, oh, those are words that I know. So let me make sure I’m asking those questions, provided you know what you’re doing, even at a base level.

Katie Robbert – 22:50
Like, so you can say, hey, generative AI, what did I miss? That’s a great place to start.

John Wall – 22:56
Yeah, right. Doing, doing checkup. And there is, from touching on what Brian said, there’s two levels. There is totally the running with scissors problem. Right. People building stuff that they’ve never built before and don’t understand. And like you said, yeah, privacy and security. But then there is also for experienced developers. I have seen all these cases of developers becoming five, six times more productive because they’re just able to grind out code. And that’s a whole different thing. I don’t pretend to be any kind of expert on what, you know, how that works or where that goes, because that’s a whole other thing.

Katie Robbert – 23:28
But you just said something really important. You said experienced developers who are becoming 5, 6, 10x.

John Wall – 23:34
There’s true.

Katie Robbert – 23:35
So, like, they know what they’re doing. So it totally makes sense that generative AI would make them more productive because they know what they’re doing. And that, to me, is the key. And so Vibe coding, yes, is throwing a wrench in the SDLC, but not for people who understand and practice the SDLC.

John Wall – 23:55
All right, that makes sense. Yeah. And keeping on the MOC timeline, we got to roll ahead a little bit here. I did have one thing that I wanted to throw out that I saw. There’s an article about talking about geo. People are talking about SEO, you know, search engine optimization. Well, generative engine optimization is GEO or Geo. My first thought was just like, no, I don’t want that. Like, bring me something else. We seem to be on the same page. I do have a link on that. There were some stats about amount of traffic that’s going to chat instead of organic search results. And they’re saying that it’s only 3 or 4% of the total volume of search. You know, it’s growing, but it’s not. It’s been kind of overblown as what people should be afraid of.

John Wall – 24:38
Oh, I also wanted to throw out AuraCast. I had a test deployment successful. I have finally gotten that to work after playing around with that. I’ve talked about it on previous shows, but just a quick take on that is this idea that you basically would go onto your phone and look at the audio playing around you and you can just push and you can listen to what’s there. And it’s multi-point. Bluetooth is really what this is. So, you know, Bluetooth is hamstrung where just you can listen to the music you’re playing. And a lot of phones now will do a second person, somebody else can share that thing. But this is where you set up a box that’s streaming.

John Wall – 25:12
I mean, I have a tiny box, smaller than a pack of Tic Tacs that you could plug into an iPod or into your computer and play audio. And groups of people could, you know, hear that or listen to that. And the use case that I’ve been crazy about is at airports at your gate. Your gate could have its own AuraCast and so you could be anywhere in the airport, but you’re going to hear, hey, they’re boarding your plane now. And there’s obviously a ton of use cases for museums and movie theaters and places where lots of people. Now you just see some of these places where they have these crazy devices and it’s Wi-Fi enabled or there’s just all this stuff and just make that all go away. It’s if you have AuraCast headphones and you have a phone, boom, that’s it.

John Wall – 25:51
You can access this. So that does work and run. Also, random follow-up, I was talking about car audio. I destroyed the car battery on our car, which I am not dead or didn’t lose any limbs or anything. So I’m marking that a complete success. But basically, as I was reattaching the car battery, the wrench flipped off and it closed the circuit between the two terminals and, you know, instantly heated up to 5,000 degrees and just about melted the wrench and killed me. So I wanted to do a PSA for folks to, you know, make sure you’ve got your battery terminals covered when you got the wrenches flying around. And then media stuff we had Wednesday is out on Netflix, Wednesday Adams. Of course, if you’re not familiar with it, they did season one. Season two is back. You guys said you watched it.

John Wall – 26:45
What was your take on that?

Katie Robbert – 26:47
Yeah, we watched the first episode last night and we both, within the first few minutes had the same reaction of, huh. They definitely went more dark this season. Like, it’s. I feel like the first season was a good introduction. It was like a little bit more light-hearted. You know, I know that the actress Jenna Ortega, was not a huge fan of focusing on like, Wednesday’s love life, and I know that in season two, that’s not really part of the storyline at all. And she is thrilled about it. She’s like, that’s not what this character is about. It’s much darker. It’s focused more on, you know, the things that Wednesday is interested in, you know. So if you haven’t seen it, I don’t want to give away too much, but yeah, it’s interesting. And of course, it’s Tim Burton.

Katie Robbert – 27:31
And so if you know any of his stuff, like, you’re like, wow, this is so Tim Burton. And I think he’s done a fantastic job with it so far.

John Wall – 27:39
Yeah, no, they came charging out of the gate in the first episodes. If you haven’t seen it’s not like anything else out there. We have so many sequels and stuff getting retreaded and this is just completely original, which makes it fantastic. So you want to check out that. And then on Nerdwatch, I had the 4K Dolby restoration of Tron for old-school tech movies. They’ve completely kind of freshly brushed that up and made it look cool again. So that’s a big deal. And then I’m actually going to Fan Expo in Boston, which is basically the Comic Con. They, you know, it’s not the official brand Comic Con, but yeah, my son wants to go hit that this weekend, so we’re going to be down there. And yeah, that should be interesting. I’ll have a. Plenty to report back on that.

Katie Robbert – 28:20
But yeah, I, I did that quite a few years back. I went, went to the Boston version of the Comic Con and it was interesting because we’re on the T, the MBTA, you know, we call it the T in Boston. And it was the same day there was a Red Sox game, there was a Bruins, like preseason or something going on. And then there was Comic Con. And so you had all those different cultures sort of like colliding one train car, which was really fascinating. But we actually, went there and were able to get the autograph of the guy who created Mad magazine, which was pretty cool.

John Wall – 29:02
Oh, that’s very cool. Jaffe. Yeah. God, that’s. Saul Colt has worked with a bunch of those guys from there. But, yeah, that’s a good grab because that’s Mad magazine has its own cult following. And, yeah, I grew up with that. That was comedy like you couldn’t get. There’s no Simpsons without Mad magazine, that’s for sure.

Katie Robbert – 29:21
I always looked forward to the trifold in the back.

John Wall – 29:23
Right, right. The hidden. The hidden thing. Yeah. Oh, God. We’re dating ourselves with old print stuff that nobody cares about anymore. All right, I want to give a plug. Of course. The Marketing Over Coffee text line is at 617-812-5494. And again, analytics for marketers for Trust Insights. And yeah, that wraps up the MOC stuff. I don’t know, is there any stuff you want to do for. So what things you want to cover? Bonus content for people that stay on the live stream here.

Katie Robbert – 29:49
Bonus content. So if we’re switching gears and we go back to the Trust Insights background, we just thought it’d be really interesting this week to do a live recording of one of our podcasts. And so Marketing Over Coffee being John and Chris’s podcast, I occasionally crash it when Chris is out of town. But, you know, I know that, you know, there’s a lot of, you know, videos of people recording their podcasts and, you know, lots of live streams, but Marketing Over Coffee in particular, like, John, you don’t use the video that you record with. So I thought it would be fun for people who are longtime fans to be able to actually see, like, here’s what we’re doing. Like, it doesn’t look different from the live stream or anything, but it’s a different. It’s different content. So I just thought it would be interesting.

Katie Robbert – 30:44
Do you think that you would ever. I know I ask you this all the time, but would you ever put up a YouTube channel and start putting up the videos from.

John Wall – 30:54
Oh, yeah, we know we have. There’s a YouTube channel. It just. It doesn’t get a ton of play. It’s all through certain episodes up there once in a while. And then we do have the transcripts get basically auto-transcribed and then the audio goes up on there. So. But yeah, it’s the thing for us, it’s always been. We’ve had so many listeners that have talked about, hey, we want the audio podcast. You know, this is when we’re at the gym or when we’re driving. We don’t have time to sit down and watch it. But the thing that’s changed is, like, you have to be doing video on YouTube, you know, like, we always have to add more stuff, more content. And it’s. I was even listening to, there was another marketing podcast that was talking about this today.

John Wall – 31:33
And that’s the whole challenge of like, you want to do these clips, but people are using these automated tools and the clips are terrible and they miss good clips. So it’s like, how do you manage all this? And yeah, it’s just, you know, as part of the workload, video is always falling to the bottom of the pile for me. But yeah, there is value to it. And then if you can cross over to get that point where you get thousands of people watching a stream and you’re constantly getting feedback and stuff. But yeah, we talk to busy people and it’s the same thing with Trust Insights fans. You know, like, they have work to do there. They want the deep dive of the stuff and they appreciate the video when they can do it.

John Wall – 32:05
But, you know, it’s got to be on demand because appointment is just a challenge on the B2B side.

Katie Robbert – 32:11
Well, and I had to laugh because, you know, we, you know, we’re very transparent. We use a lot of AI tools and I know that. So Chris, who does the post-production for our podcast, he has, you know, his scripts and his processes, and every single week, without fail, it cuts me off mid-sentence in the promo video and I’m like, dude, just like let it do the whole sentence. But that would require actually manually doing it, not using the AI. And I’ve talked to a lot of people who have had the same complaint. Like they want to make the process faster. They don’t have time to edit out all the clips.

Katie Robbert – 32:49
But what happens when you let AI do it is that it will cut off mid-sentence or it will take things so wildly out of context that like, if you had just like a few seconds more of preamble, then the sentence that was being chosen would make sense, you know, so I’m sure there’s people who specialize in that particular thing. I would love to hear from them and like, what it is that we’re doing wrong that we should be fixing. If you want to head over to our free Slack group, Trust Insights AI Analytics for Marketers, tell us how to better use AI-powered video editing software so that our promo clips don’t look just all hacked together. I would love that because we also, we record the newsletter. I would love to do promo clips for that, but ain’t nobody got time.

Katie Robbert – 33:36
I would love to use more promo clips from the podcast, not just the one that we post once a week. And all of the other videos we create, we do the live stream. Like, you know, we’re doing this for Marketing Over Coffee. Like, I would love to use all of that footage, but we’re a small team and we don’t have time to do all of that editing in a way that feels like it was done thoughtfully.

John Wall – 33:58
Yeah, well, that’s. It’s just. That’s the dirty little secret of these tools that nobody talks about. It’s like, yeah, I can do it, but you pretty much need somebody to watch it and confirm that it got the right thing and it’s the best one. And so now you’ve got a human in the whole mix anyways, so have. You know. Do you want them to pick the clips, too? Yeah, that’s interesting. I know there’s some other tools out there and Adobe has some stuff. Like, I think a great way to do it would be, is if there was a way where as we’re doing this, we had a marker to tap. You know, we could say that, oh, hey, that was a great point. And then grab 30 seconds before that. That’s something that could work.

John Wall – 34:31
I’ll have to dig around, see if there’s anything that can do that as part of. Part of the recording process, because that would make something more interesting because, yeah, it’s this idea of like running it and getting four things out of the grab bag and having to watch them and see which ones are any good. Like, that’s. You’re just starting to chew up a bunch of time. It’s not really saving you the hours that, you know, that we would all like to see with this kind of stuff.

Katie Robbert – 34:53
Yeah, no, I agree. I think that’s an interesting idea. Anything else for the Marketing Over Coffee episode for today that we didn’t get to cover because of the. So for those who don’t know, as we recorded the live version of Marketing Over Coffee, unlike the live stream, which can go on for like 45 minutes to 60 minutes, Marketing Over Coffee is a shorter form podcast. So, John, you typically run like 20 to 30 minutes, right?

John Wall – 35:21
Yeah, well, the goal is to shoot for like 22. You know, I mean, back in the day when it was, you know, as we’re heading to now, back in the office, the idea is that you’ve got to commute or you’ve got to work out. That’s, you know, the idea was not to do one of these podcasts where you’re a single marketing talking head talking for an hour 30. You know, that’s just way too much stuff. So, yeah, the idea was kind of like get three or four key points out there and make it done in less than 25 minutes so people can go on to their next guest or whatever. But. And the other thing we talked about, like reviewing tools or giving feedback on stuff. Always actionable, you know, something that you can take away as soon as you’re done with. So.

John Wall – 35:56
But yeah, we got clipped. I was going back through the rundown to see if there was anything else that got. Got munched. I guess the big one was K Pop Demon Slayers. I had that on the list as exciting stuff.

Katie Robbert – 36:05
I have no idea what that is.

John Wall – 36:07
You haven’t seen. Oh, well. So Korean Pop, they have a whole movie about this fact that they’re a Korean girl band is actually protecting the world from demons overrunning us. And so it’s a. It’s big with the kids. The kids love this stuff. You gotta check this out.

Katie Robbert – 36:24
Well, see, there’s. There’s my problem. I don’t have any kids in the house.

John Wall – 36:27
Yes, I know kids. You need that constant influx. But it’s running wild. It’s been number one or two on the movie on Netflix for the past couple weeks because it’s just been on fire. The thing has been huge.

Katie Robbert – 36:39
Over in her Slack group, our good friend Jenny Dietrich was mentioning that she’s gotten really into the music from the K Pop Demon Slayers or whatever. Like I think she said, it’s really catchy. So I’ll have to check it out just to like even see what the heck is going on. I try to. When I hear of something, I at least try to look it up to see like what it is so that I can have somewhat of an intelligent conversation about it. But this time I’m lost.

John Wall – 37:06
Well, you should definitely dig in then. Yeah. And over. It’s. It’s on Fire and Spotify too. There’s a couple of playlists from the movie. And yeah, I mean, the thing is that it’s perfectly engineered pop, you know, I mean, is just as shiny and perfect as it can be, but. But it is amazing to see. There’s a lot of stuff you’ll hear. You’ll be like, oh my God, that is Queen. Or that is Huey Lewis, or that is REM. Like, you can see the influences. As somebody who’s a huge fan of music, you will completely love playing the guess at game as you listen to these songs and try and figure out where it comes from. Because, yeah, there’s so many themes that they pick up to just make this bulletproof pop candy that it’s worth checking out.

John Wall – 37:44
I’ll dig one up and throw it in the MOC show notes. So be. People can dig in and click around and listen. But yeah, if you’re listening for ear candy, you know, just fun. That’s not gonna. It’s not gonna bring you down. You can’t mess with K pop.

Katie Robbert – 37:58
Did you ever see now we’re into sort of like the devolved version that. That John and I do at the end of every show. Did you ever see there’s a clip of Ed Sheeran, and I think he’s on some talk show. I’d have to look it up and I’ll find you the YouTube clip, John, where basically he’s saying that every song can be reduced down to the same three or four chords. And so he’s sitting there with his guitar and he’s, you know, he’s a really talented musician. He’s like. He’s like, give me a song. And he’s like playing these, like, three or four chords. And like, it doesn’t matter what song the host gave him. He was able to play it within that. Those constraints. And the host was like, that is crazy.

John Wall – 38:41
Yeah. No, that’s.

Katie Robbert – 38:42
It.

John Wall – 38:42
Like, Pachelbel’s canon is one you can. There’s a bunch of stuff you can YouTube. You can basically take Pachelbel’s canon. There’s tons of songs that have been taken on that. And yeah, there’s a riff on Taylor Swift. She has a chord progression she always uses. And then there’s if for old-school music folks. Billy Joel has a thing on HBO that has just come out, a huge tale of his whole life. And he talks about stealing from classical music all the time. I mean, he’s like, Uptown Girl is basically Mozart that he just kind of sped up and got moving. So, yeah, the idea of people just using these tropes over and over again is. Yeah.

John Wall – 39:15
You know, there’s certain music that we love, and I don’t know, you can get really deep into it as far as, like, that’s what connects us, you know, these, you know, drums and having a pulse in the music. And that’s all part of the human experience that we can’t quantify, and it brings more to our lives.

Katie Robbert – 39:31
One of my favorite interviews is Dave Grohl sitting down with Frell and For All’s like, you know, you’re this amazing drummer, and Dave Grohl’s like, stop calling me an amazing drummer. And he’s like, and for. I was like, what are you talking about? You were in Nirvana. You did this. And he’s like, yeah, if you listen to Smells Like Teen Spirit, I basically pulled everything from disco. And so Pharrell’s like, sitting there. He’s like, oh, my God. And so Dave Grohl is like, you know, showing how he did it. It’s all the upbeats from disco, and you’re like, oh, my God. Spirit is just disco.

John Wall – 40:05
No, he’s totally stole the gap band for.

Katie Robbert – 40:07
That’s what it was.

John Wall – 40:09
Yeah. Yeah. So Roll had, like, talked to the guy from the Gap and he’s like, hey, I saw all your stuff. And the guy’s like, yeah, I know. You know, you owe me some money.

Katie Robbert – 40:16
I mean, it’s fascinating.

John Wall – 40:17
Yeah.

Katie Robbert – 40:18
And, you know, this. This type of conversation is something that John and I, you know, when it gets to be like the holidays, we’ll record episodes of Marketing Over Coffee that talk, like, strictly about music. Like, we’ve tried to do just music shows. So if you’re interested in John and I doing that, you know, maybe with some live audience participation, you know, hit us up at Trust Insights AI slash analytics for marketers. Or leave a comment on Marketing Over Coffee or just find us and let us know because that’s the kind of thing that we could totally talk about all day long. We tried to do, what, five for Friday, and that was, gosh, six, seven years ago we tried to do that, and quite honestly, we just ran out of time. Like, we wanted to do it. It’s a passion project.

Katie Robbert – 41:03
We just couldn’t do it.

John Wall – 41:04
Tom Webster ran with that for a little while, and he is just a music genius. So this is something we could do when we’re at Prof. Speed to be in Boston in the fall and Tom’s down there too. We could do an AuraCast of. Do a silent disco. People could pop on their headphones and listen to some tunes. So, yeah, if you’re on the B2B list for marketing, profs give us a yell on that because we should definitely put something together on that front.

Katie Robbert – 41:28
Yeah, we should start doing the spinning up the Friday DJ as well. You were doing that for a while.

John Wall – 41:35
Yeah, it’s the same thing. Well, even TT Live Turntable, I. I think that is like the coolest music thing going. But it’s just. Yeah, there’s only so many hours in the day, and I don’t have the time to be Deadmau5 or DJ Collet or whatever you want to say. But yeah, I could just be spending obscure tunes all the time. But yeah, everybody likes to be their own DJ. I think that’s really the punchline on that one.

John Wall – 42:55
Yeah. All right, well, so for those watching, this was a live recording of Marketing Over Coffee. If you want to subscribe to Marketing Over Coffee, go over to marketingovercoffee.com. If you want to sponsor Marketing Over Coffee, you can go ahead and go to marketingovercoffee.com or you can find us at Trust Insights AI contact and you can still find John there. And if you just want to tell us the kind of stuff that you want to hear about on future live streams or future episodes of the podcast, go to Trust Insights AI Analytics Marketers to join our free Slack community. With over 4,000 friends and marketers and people asking answering questions, it’s a good time. And tomorrow’s Friday and so Fridays are unhinged and we ask non-work questions and sometimes they go off the rails and sometimes I just let that happen.

Katie Robbert – 43:07
That’s right. All right, John, I think that’s it for this week.

John Wall – 43:10
That sounds good. It was a great time and yeah, we will see you around. We’ll be back again next week.

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